why do (some) people hate bilge/twin keels

[Storyline]

Someone earlier in the thread said - horses for courses and I completely agree.

We had a 31' bilge keeled Westerly for the best part of 20 years and sailed mostly around the Irish Sea and frequently dried out in many harbours and anchorages. Although the racers in our club poured scorn on her, she was a strong sea boat and although she could not point very high sailed really well with the wind on the beam. Each summer we would have a fortnight in Scotland. After many years we got fed up of the 36 hour slog up and down from Liverpool and decided that a 5 hour drive was preferable so based her up on the west coast.

After 5 years we wanted a bigger boat (actually all we really wanted was more luxury) and it was a real wrench to lose the ability to dry out but when we analysed it, the tidal range was so low and we realised we never actually dried out in Scotland.

Now we have a 36' long fin and have no regrets. The boat sails much better and is so powerful it provides all the adrenaline needed before spending the night at anchor sipping chilled wine and beer from the new fridge. I am not a rabid ex smoker type convert but if drying out is not a priority then I think the sheer extra sailing pleasure of a fin keeler wins out.

 

[JimC]

... There is only one AWB maker with bilge keels and they are relatively recent...

More than that I think.
http://www.wrightonyachts.com/
http://www.marinesalesuk.co.uk/
http://www.britishhunter.co.uk/
http://www.rm-yachts.com
though not sure if British Hunters or RMs fall under the heading of AWBs

 

[jwilson]

a comment on the Kudu thread got me thinking about Bilge keels/twin keel prejudice

they are now part of Britain's sailing heritage

yet a lot of poeple I have met would never touch a boat with them

Katie L is parked at Brough above the Humber Bridge

the estauary drains to about 2m in the channel - if you can find it

yet most of the yachts there have deep single keels

so they sail ay high tide and then go back to Brough to hide in the deep mud

I have had the triple keeled slug, I have had a a couple of drop keelers and a fin keeler and now I have two sub keels and a centre plate

I don't think I would ever go back to a single keel

I love the shallow bits too much

Dylan

Have owned a centreboarder, twin-keeler, long-keeler and now a modern deep-fin-keeler. Each was ideal for my £££ at the time, and where I sailed at the time. Occasionally I hanker after a good twin-keeler, maybe an RM, or an Ovni-type centreboarder.

 

[A1Sailor]

What surprises me though, is the number of owners who don't actually use them for their best feature - drying out. There are places in the Scilly Isles, Brittany and the Channel isles that are just crying out for boats taking the ground and many sailors who have bought suitable craft but don't.

St Ninian's Bay on the west coast of Bute on the Clyde. Firm, level sand - perfect, particularly in northerly winds.

 

[Storyline]

St Ninian's Bay on the west coast of Bute on the Clyde. Firm, level sand - perfect, particularly in northerly winds.

Oh, you make me jealous - apart from the advantage of being able to walk to the pub it is so nice to be able to walk around and check out all is well with the hull.

 

[Jaguar 25]

Drying out

I have a twin keeler but have never dried out. Lots of beaches around Liverpool but they are very shallow in terms of water normally a long way from the start of the beach e.g. Southport, Ainsdale. So:
1. How do you decide where is suitable for drying out.
2. Once settled onto the sand, etc., how do you stop her tipping over if you walk up to the bow or hang over the stern. In a boatyard for my twin keel Jaguar, it was essential to prop up fore and aft. No props in the picture.

 

[Searush]

I have a twin keeler but have never dried out. Lots of beaches around Liverpool but they are very shallow in terms of water normally a long way from the start of the beach e.g. Southport, Ainsdale. So:
1. How do you decide where is suitable for drying out.
2. Once settled onto the sand, etc., how do you stop her tipping over if you walk up to the bow or hang over the stern. In a boatyard for my twin keel Jaguar, it was essential to prop up fore and aft. No props in the picture.

Is it essential to prop fore & aft? Have you tried without? Some boats tip when they dry out but it shouldn't do them any harm - they ought to be designed to take it. Tipping over on and is no more than inconvenient.

You need a sheltered beach to dry out, Southport, Ainsdale etc can be VERY exposed. Once a front passes thro the NW'lies could esily break your boat apart. Meols is protected by a drying sandbank & quite few boats have drying moorings there, The same goes for West Kirby & Heswall. They are exposed at HW, but you take the ground & lift off before the sandbanks are covered. You may find similar conditions up river towards Hale too.

Best places to take the ground are Anglesey & N Wales or IoM, or head up towards Ravenglass. The Mersey isn't that good for cruising options, whch I why, despite living there for many years I have hardly ever sailed it.

 

[dylanwinter]

bottom testing

Is it essential to prop fore & aft? Have you tried without? Some boats tip when they dry out but it shouldn't do them any harm - they ought to be designed to take it. Tipping over on and is no more than inconvenient.

You need a sheltered beach to dry out, Southport, Ainsdale etc can be VERY exposed. Once a front passes thro the NW'lies could esily break your boat apart. Meols is protected by a drying sandbank & quite few boats have drying moorings there, The same goes for West Kirby & Heswall. They are exposed at HW, but you take the ground & lift off before the sandbanks are covered. You may find similar conditions up river towards Hale too.

Best places to take the ground are Anglesey & N Wales or IoM, or head up towards Ravenglass. The Mersey isn't that good for cruising options, whch I why, despite living there for many years I have hardly ever sailed it.

I carry a peastick or dowell

that way you can find out what the bottom is like before settling down

Dylan

 

[LittleSister]

Few years ago I saw an article about a French boat... (it would be French as they like to inovate) designed for a three peaks type race.. where one has to run ashore and up a hill for some odd reason... The design issue was that there were no marinas. only drying beaches and inlets

It was only 24 feet long but had a mini transat type hull form but with swinging twin keels some 2m long.. She could sit on the ground with the keels up then deploy the leward one for beating... apparently it was very fast...

Heol 7.4 ?

Innovative French? That's all old hat - witness the Fairey Atalanta, twin swing keels, hi-tech lightweight construction: 24ft prototype 1955, on sale 1956 as a 26 footer, later 20 foot and 31 foot versions. (For Dylan - there used to be one on the Humber at Brough about 10 years ago.)

 

[Searush]

Fairy Atalanta? wasn't that one of Uffa Fox's based on his airborne lifeboat concept, triple layer cold moulded wooden hulls. Strong enough to be dropped from aircraft into the North Sea for ditched aircrews to be able to rescue themselves & sail/ row/ motor home complete with rig, oars, engine, food, cooker, fuel & medical kit.

IIRC the Admiralty didn't believe it could be done, so he made the prototype himself & demonstrated the concept worked. Saved a lot of air crews lives & without the need for constant, dangerous sea borne rescue patrols.

 

[A1Sailor]

St Ninian's Bay on the west coast of Bute on the Clyde. Firm, level sand - perfect, particularly in northerly winds.

I have had my present boat since May and have dried it out once - so don't consider myself an expert. I did it to do it! Also to do some cleaning and investigate prop & anodes. I didn't go fwd of the mast once the water had disappeared - there was no need. The skeg supports the aft end when aground. The anchor & chain were obviously not on board!
Essential, as others have said, to pick your location and weather. Avoid significant waves, and a change in sea conditions in the hours before you refloat.
The picture above is taken looking south; the one below looking north. Click for a googlemap. The bay is totally exposed to the south-west, so I picked a day with a north-westerly wind. I wouldn't have done it with any amount of south in the wind. I anchored at HW with about a metre under the keel(s), and the water was so clear/the sand so clean that I knew there were no obstructions. The occasional rock had seaweed growing from it, so easy to avoid. The water reappeared remarkably quickly when it did!

 

[dgadee]

Drying out is ok, but how do you get up and down off the boat? This is currently occupying my thoughts - a collapsible ladder? A rope ladder? Some sort of sliding ladder on the stern (a long folding one may be difficult to fit beside my self steering ...)? Ideas welcome.

 

[A1Sailor]

Drying out is ok, but how do you get up and down off the boat? This is currently occupying my thoughts - a collapsible ladder? A rope ladder? Some sort of sliding ladder on the stern (a long folding one may be difficult to fit beside my self steering ...)? Ideas welcome.

Boat has a draft of just under a metre, but it is still about 2-3ft from the bottom of the ladder to the ground. I used the rubber dinghy, while it could still float - with everything I needed just reachable in the cockpit.

 

[JimC]

I use one of these http://www.telescopic-ladders-direct.com/acatalog/Standard-telescopic-ladders.html?gclid=CPG0s6iOwLQCFcjKtAodXj8ANA You have to remeber to pull them back aboard before the tide comes back in as they don't take kindly to salt water.

 

[A1Sailor]

The other thing that struck me on refloating was that I hadn't forewarned HM Coastguard. Imagine the embarassment of being "rescued" by a lifeboat if somebody watching me 'run aground' had dialled 999! Unlikely - but possible...
The local residents are probably used to such goings on.

 

[causeway]

A bilge keeler like the above little Snappy can provide fantastic value for money and can be kept afloat in shallow harbours where a long or fin keel would fall over. As far as sailing performance goes, well that Snappy will sail all day long on a small Raymarine autohelm which is a good indication of a light helm and good tracking. She tacks and heaves too easily. And in comparison with similar boats of any keel configuration she is certainly fast enough to be fun even if not ultimately as slippery. An advantage over a lifting keel is that the cabin can be open and surprisingly spacious because you don't have the lifting keel aparatus to take up precious cabin space and none of the maintenance problems associated with lifting keels as they age. Having owned lifting keel, long fin, bilge and long keel I found that when I moved to a long fin I did appreciate the better sailing performance. As I kept them on a deep water mooring I rarely dried my bilge keeler out or needed to lift the keel so had no need for the advantages of bilge. And now with a long keel I prefer that to all but certainly little bilge keelers can be just the craft for perfect coasting.

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

But what were you doing in Portrush??

 

[Pitterpatter]

One of these?

Drying out is ok, but how do you get up and down off the boat? This is currently occupying my thoughts - a collapsible ladder? A rope ladder? Some sort of sliding ladder on the stern (a long folding one may be difficult to fit beside my self steering ...)? Ideas welcome.

I am fitting a ladder to our new to us Fulmar. The main aim is to be able to get on and off the boat while dried out. I reckon http://www.force4.co.uk/9370/Force-4-Boarding-Ladder-with-Wooden-Steps.html will do and give a sensible height when dried out. Although I have also seen one of the emergency type ladders has additional, hook on sections sold seperately that may hook onto the bottom to give an extra rung when needed.

 

[interloper]

I remember seeing many years ago an article in Yachting Monthly that compared four variants of the Sadler 32: Deep Fin, Shallow Fin, Bilge Keel, and Lifting Keel. Snooping around on the web, I found a document that features some of the conclusions from the article < http://www.mikelucasyachting.co.uk/sadler-starlight-boats/articles/keel-choice.pdf >:

Performance comparisons. Comments have already been made regarding performance for the various keel configurations in relation to each type of boat. However, an interesting exercise was conducted by Yachting Monthly in 1981 to compare the four main keel options fitted to a Sadler 32 and I have drawn from this article a few conclusions which are relevant and I am sure
you will find interesting.

SADLER 32

Under power turning circle (x length) in ahead
Deep fin 1.3
Shallow fin 1.5
Bilge keel 1.0
Lifting keel 1.3 plate up 1.5 plate down

Under power turning circle (x length) in astern
Deep fin 2.5
Shallow fin 2.5
Bilge keel 1.7
Lifting keel 2.5

Under sail (wind 22 knots, close hauled) weather helm, tiller angle
Deep fin 10º
Shallow fin 12º
Bilge keel 20º
Lifting keel 14º

Under sail (wind 22 knots, close hauled) angle of heel
Deep fin 20º
Shallow fin 20-25º
Bilge keel 25-30º
Lifting keel 25º

Under sail (wind 22 knots, close hauled) effective tacking angle
Deep fin 73º
Shallow fin 75º
Bilge keel 80º
Lifting keel 75º

Summary. Not surprisingly, the 32 tests show that deep fin keel gives the best performance and "stiffness". However, the shallow fin pays only a small penalty in this respect, with the advantage of 12" less draft.

Choice of twin keel does sacrifice a fair amount of performance, but has the advantage of shallow draft and stability aground. However, manouverability under power is significantly better with twin keel.

In practice, a shallow fin and twin keel yacht is likely to reef earlier than the deep fin keel yacht and would thence display less heel angle and weatherhelm than shown, at 22 knots of wind.

Only broad conclusions can be drawn from these tests, insofar as the other Sadlers are concerned, but the indications are interesting. It is likely that performance differences would be less evident with the 29 and 26, where twin keels are more popular.

 

[OGITD]

You were right!

No that is not the case. Think of a the wing on a glider, the curved bit is on the top. As the the glider moves forward and toward ground (to leaward) the wing generates lift. So in a boat the curved side of an asymetrical foil (keel) is on the inside in the case of twin keels

I'm off for a good look tomorrow!

As I think you might be right! & it's curved on the inside!

 

[dgadee]

Very interesting comparative data on the Saddler indeed. My twin keel Seawolf 30 turns on a sixpence and I find I reef quite early (though the main is very large anyway) to keep my heel at around 20 degrees for best speed. Not sure about pointing - will have to look into this and compare the figures with the one's you have provided.