Who listens to us ?

[LiamS]

I have been trawling the for sale sections of mags,websites etc. as I think most people do just to see whats out there even if you are happy with your lot.
I believe the members of this forum are fairly well experienced in their chosen pastime and obviously represent a good cross-section of todays boat buyers.
QUESTION.......If there is so many negatives to petrol engines and I cannot say that I can see a positive side expressed on this forum WHY do boat builders and designers insist on fitting a certain amount of their craft with petrol engines ?There are some great models and nice looking boats on the market but as you read down the spec. you see those dreaded words PETROL ENGINES and most people loose interest straight away.

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[jhr]

I'm no expert, but surely reasoning includes the following:

- Many boats come from US, where petrol is £1 per gallon
- On smaller boats, in particular, the cost/benefit advantage of diesel is pretty small unless you do significant annual hours. You have to buy a hell of a lot of petrol to make up the (?) £5-6K gap in price between a 250hp petrol engine and its diesel equivalent
- petrol engines are quieter, less smelly, have better power/weight ratio than diesel engines

Having said all of which, the bigger the boat, the less likelihood of seeing petrol engines in it, as issues of torque and (arguably) endurance come more on to centre stage. As somebody who pours large quantities of petrol into a Merc 5L, I'm not exactly impartial on this subject - and I'd love it to cost less - but I do think petrol engines have their merits.

Oh, and they don't suffer from diesel bug, either!



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[martynwhiteley]

With regard to the builders, most boats that end up in the UK aren't built for the UK market. They're either built for the Northern American (Lot's of cheap petrol and large lakes), or the Med (No red diesel).

However because we can't build small boats cheap enough in the UK, we import hundreds of new American and European ones. These tend to be petrol powered (esp if under 30ft), and soon find there way onto the s/h market.

There's no intrinsic problem with petrol boats, it's (IMHO) just they are not generally the best choice when (and I know through my own experience) you can reduced your annual fuel bill from nearly £3,000 pa, to under £500, just by going diesel.

But if your boating is more 'day boat' orientated, i.e. you do not cruise a good distance away from your home base, and you do less than say 70 hours a year, saving £10K buy buying petrol power could (just) be an ok option.



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[martynwhiteley]

Thinking about it, I'd always recommend someone to buy a petrol boat (if there was a choice), and get the one with the crapiest worn out old petrols you can for the cheapest price.

Ditch the petrols immediately, and replace with new diesel(s).

You'll end up with a boat with NEW diesels, for perhaps little more than what you would have paid, if you picked a ready made diesel boat with 14 year old 1200 hour veterens.

As long as you keep the boat 3 years or more, you can't lose.

I borrowed the the full cost of my repower over 5 years at 6.9% apr.

Although I didn't think of it this way before, the monthly loan repayments are comfortably less than the extra cost it would have been each month feeding the petrols. Not to mention the horrendous spares cost of keeping ageing BMW spinning. So in fact, I've got new diesel repower 'for free', and I'm saving even more every month!

In 4 or 5 years time, the boat will be very saleable with a newish diesel, and worth far more (perhaps even more than the original cost), than it would have been with (by then) some very dodgy petrols.



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[Guest]

The main reason why diesel engines are so popular is because of the tax concession. The chances of this remaining with EU pressure to harmonise duties is obviously slight.
Whether the current interest of the authorities in the ultimate usage of red diesel is a precursor to further action remains to be seen.

Should it be removed then it is likely that the cost of diesel at the pump would be at least that currently being charged for petrol (about 90p/l), possibly even more. The effect on the future resale value of diesel as opposed to petrol boats is a subject for speculation

Geoff


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[TwoStroke]

Diesels will always remain favourable over petrol due to the cruising range available to them compared to similar petrol.

<hr width=100% size=1>How much to fill'er up!

 

[banus]

Martin, Thanks for the tip on the Corniche. I saw a really nice one but with twin petrols. What does it cost to change them for diesel (hence the link with this thread)

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[kimhollamby]

The bigger picture

Loss of red diesel would certainly depress the market, but there are a number of other factors (outside of the perennial discussions about safety) that ought to ensure the continuing popularity of diesel and preserve at least a percentage of investment made in that type of engine.

Fuel availability is one of them; HSE regs on fuel berths for petrol are guaranteeing than no-one is rushing to improve what is not quite patchy coverage in the UK.

An efficiency ratio of around 5:7 in favour of diesel is another.

For heavier planing craft the more favourable torque characteristics of diesels and a further bonus.

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[PGD]

All good points raised here, I repowered after loosing my V6 petrol to the frost. To me it was a choice of 30 - 60 quid per weekend in petrol - used only on the Thames - compared to now at about 50 - 80 quid per year - yes the savings are that much. I used to burn 1 + gal per hour now with a 2.4 l turbo diesel I burn 1 + litres per hour.

Safety as has been said goes a long way, also BSS for inland water ways. Resale value too and for me maintaining original boat design speed was a consideration. I've added heating and hot water / shower and now and have a little boat (Fairline Holiday) with all the toys you could want for a 2 week holiday on the river. Also reliablity in starting and running is a factor for diesel - don't really know why they are priced so much higher - guess that cos of the above ongoing parts sales are limited so the add on value to manufatureres is less /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

Engine hours are up on what I did on the petrol cos the season for me can be extended - hell, I was out in February this year - Twice /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

Like Mike said, payback for me is about 4 years but with the building society now owning the boat at mortgage rates - who cares, if I sold her I'd get all the money back.

Can't say I'd ever buy a petrol boat again, yes they have there plus points and yes the British boat building industry needs to cater for samll boats at affordable prices rather than having USA built 5.0 l monsters designed for a much warmer climates - one company that gets my vote is Sheerline, good styling, river or costal use - price ??? not so sure but a good looking boat - I think the 950 will become a popular model.

regards

peter

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mssa.org.uk>http://www.mssa.org.uk</A> Marine Service Standards Assistance

 

[martynwhiteley]

Jeff,

I did perhaps gloss over the fact that I did all the work myself changing the engines, so that made it much more cost effective, but some conversions will not cost too much. It all depends on what's existing of course.

My fuel tank had already been replaced 12 months ago with a stainless version, so was fine for diesel. It also had spare connections for the return line now required. However more often than not, on an older boat, it's going to need new tank(s).

The biggest issues after that are dependant on whether your on shafts (much cheaper), or need new outdrive legs (expensive). If on legs, it's possible to use the old ones, but are they up to it?

It's always possible to work to a budget, and the starting price would be about £5K per engine to fit recon diesels to existing drives. At the top end, you'd be paying about £20K per engine for 200+ hp units with new duo prop drives.

It is mystifying why suppliers of 25ft boats charge at least £10K extra for a diesel package, when they are only about £4K more expensive to buy separate.

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[tico]

agree wholheartedly.
That is if you can afford to lose the use and dont mind the hassle

<hr width=100% size=1>Been there, done that, got the oily T shirt

 

[leamans]

Of course there is always LPG? coverage is not bad in the South, I have a Mariah with a 5.7L, LPG generally costs me about £25 - £30 to fill up and will give me a good 2- 3 hours running. Plus you know you have a spare supply of fuel when you start getting low...

Just wish I had a bigger LPG tank!

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[MedDreamer]

Hi Martyn hows it going?

The price differential is there because people will pay it!!

I think the relevant point is "How do you use your boat". Being on Windermere it is difficult to clock up enough hours and use enough fuel to cover the additional upfront and/or mortgage cost. I will probably have spent about £500 by the end of the season on petrol and clocked up less than 50 hours. If we assume that the equivelent diesel would have cost me £150 then I have paid a premium of £350 on fuel. If we assume that it would have cost me another £8K to buy a diesel model then that would have added another £92 per month to my mortgage - £1100 per year. Based on these assumptions I could more than treble my run hours and still be on the right side.

If I was re-engining like you then no-question it would be diesel but petrol engined boats do have their place.

The arguement re safety is undoubtably true, I ALWAYS follow all of the instructions re on-board petrol safety to the letter and without meaning to diminish the risk (or tempt fate!) I think this point is overstated. I would even go as far as to postulate that world-wide there are more petrol powered pleasure craft than there are diesel (besides given their litigation culture do you think the Americans would still be fitting them if it was THAT risky).

Hows the boat running? Any more fuel feed problems?

Regards






<hr width=100% size=1>Martyn

 

[martynwhiteley]

Welcome back Martyn.

I think there must be some law that would say that if every MoBo Chat forum post was extended to at least 100 replies, it would ALWAYS contain a discussion on the Petrol/Diesel issue!

I bet you think I've been going on about such issues all the while you've been away!

Boats going fine, no more hiccups, however I need to stop piling hours on now until I can change the oil etc. (still waiting for filter to arrive!).


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[martynwhiteley]

Imagine

Imagine there’s no petrol, it’s easy if you try.

No Shell or Total, the pumps have all run dry.

Imagine all the Diesels, running for the day, hey hey.

You may call me a dreamer, but I’m not the only one.

I hope some day you’ll join me.

And the dieselisation will be done.


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[MedDreamer]

Re: Imagine

You don't think you may be taking your elation at the money you have saved just a little bit too far do you? (Having said that if I'd gone from £3k to £500 I'd feel much the same!)

<hr width=100% size=1>Martyn

 

[martynwhiteley]

Re: Imagine

Sorry Martyn,

It should have course have said " They may call YOU the Dreamer" !

However it's a bit like Harry Kewell's reported '£7M' transfer fee. The bottom line benefit from the transaction is actually far less.

You see I could not have afforded to go on spending fuel at a rate of about £250 a month, so the saving is very hypothetcial. Then there's the problem that increased time spent on the boat, means having to spend more money on SWMBO to keep her sweet!



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[MedDreamer]

We are Drifting.. We are Drifting

Ah yes the hidden cost of boating - the guilt and hush money extorted by SWMBO.

"So you complain about me buying these shoes/handbag/jewellry/kitchen - I NEVER complain when you want something for the boat".....




<hr width=100% size=1>Martyn