Who is insured with Haven Knox Johnston?

[Sandyshore]

Interesting comments and views just had a look at Pantenius on line web wording.
They do not offer the protection of the Financial Ombudsman to customers .All complaints have to go to Berlin German Authorities.

 

[petem]

They do not offer the protection of the Financial Ombudsman to customers.

The protection of the Ombudsman is automatic for all businesses regulated by the Financial Services Authority (FSA) or licensed by the Office of Fair Trading (OFT). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Ombudsman_Service.

 

[jfm]

Interesting comments and views just had a look at Pantenius on line web wording.
They do not offer the protection of the Financial Ombudsman to customers .All complaints have to go to Berlin German Authorities.

That is just not correct. With Pantaenius, the insurance contract is subject to English law (for UK policyholders). As Petem says above the FOS referral right is automatic anyway, but Pantaenius's UK website says "If we are unable to resolve your complaint, you have a right to ask the Financial Ombudsman Service to review your case".
http://www.pantaenius.co.uk/en/insurance/products/insurance-for-yacht-hull.html

 

[asteven221]

Blooming heck, I have just put in a claim to HKJ (circa £5k) after a relatively minor collision. That is relative compared the figures being discussed in this thread. There wasn't any third party involved and it was just a freaky accident that can unfortunately happen. It's my first claim for something "serious" in my 20 odd years boating and paying for insurance, so fingers crossed it works out ok. Not much point in having insurance otherwise. The repair just involves cosmetic repairs to the GRP bathing platform i.e. no mechanical repairs.

Anyway, for the sake of others thinking about who to insure with, I will feedback how I get on and how HKJ handle the claim. So far they have just asked for two quotes and a copy of the survey which is 3 years old. I am now a bit suspicious of their sudden desire to see the survey, although it's not got any issues that are relevant to the claim and doesn't flag up any significant problems with any aspect of our boat. I can't see any relevance to the claim, but after reading this thread I am slightly concerned that they are looking for "get outs". Hope not!

 

[Sandyshore]

Pantaenius and Yachting 24

That is just not correct. With Pantaenius, the insurance contract is subject to English law (for UK policyholders). As Petem says above the FOS referral right is automatic anyway, but Pantaenius's UK website says "If we are unable to resolve your complaint, you have a right to ask the Financial Ombudsman Service to review your case".
http://www.pantaenius.co.uk/en/insurance/products/insurance-for-yacht-hull.html

The policy that I have read from Yachting 24 part of the Pants Group clearly shows on page 2 of 3 Legal guidelines COMPLAINTS GO TO BERLIN .
No mention of any English jurisdiction or UK Ombudsman.
The point being that I do not doubt Jfm or Petem that Pantaenius on certain policies offer UK Ombudsman and others it appears a German version you have to check.
In the case debated this week involving the HKJ claim in Eastbourne IF that had been Pants on end of a potential complaint dependant on the Pants policy the complaint might end up in Berlin.
So clearly the lesson to all is to read the policy .
As I did not insure with them perhaps some one who has(yachting 24) can find out if they would accept a complaint to UK Ombudsman and post for all to read

 

[petem]

The policy that I have read from Yachting 24 part of the Pants Group clearly shows on page 2 of 3 Legal guidelines COMPLAINTS GO TO BERLIN .
No mention of any English jurisdiction or UK Ombudsman.
The point being that I do not doubt Jfm or Petem that Pantaenius on certain policies offer UK Ombudsman and others it appears a German version you have to check.
In the case debated this week involving the HKJ claim in Eastbourne IF that had been Pants on end of a potential complaint dependant on the Pants policy the complaint might end up in Berlin.
So clearly the lesson to all is to read the policy .
As I did not insure with them perhaps some one who has(yachting 24) can find out if they would accept a complaint to UK Ombudsman and post for all to read

You seem to be dealing with a German subsidiary and might therefore be covered by a German Ombudsman! I hope your German is good if you have issues with them!

I think when JFM refers to Pants he means....

http://www.pantaenius.co.uk/en/about-pantaenius/our-insurance-service.html

Pete

 

[Nigelpickin]

Ah, another HKJ customer. Please would you be so kind as to answer my question above Sunquest: which out of the £40k, £8k and £2k do you think will HKJ pay? It can be all of them or any combination. It's genuine research, I promise!

In fact, I'd ask and invite any HKJ policyholders to answer the question please. Many thanks

Im happy to come out of the closet and admit to having bought HKJ insurance. I shall be reviewing the policy this weekend and deciding how to move forward....

 

[asteven221]

Blooming heck, I have just put in a claim to HKJ (circa £5k) after a relatively minor collision. That is relative compared the figures being discussed in this thread. There wasn't any third party involved and it was just a freaky accident that can unfortunately happen. It's my first claim for something "serious" in my 20 odd years boating and paying for insurance, so fingers crossed it works out ok. Not much point in having insurance otherwise. The repair just involves cosmetic repairs to the GRP bathing platform i.e. no mechanical repairs.

Anyway, for the sake of others thinking about who to insure with, I will feedback how I get on and how HKJ handle the claim. So far they have just asked for two quotes and a copy of the survey which is 3 years old. I am now a bit suspicious of their sudden desire to see the survey, although it's not got any issues that are relevant to the claim and doesn't flag up any significant problems with any aspect of our boat. I can't see any relevance to the claim, but after reading this thread I am slightly concerned that they are looking for "get outs". Hope not!

Update for anyone interested. Got a reply back saying everything covered in full. Phew. Glad about that.
Can't say fairer than that. No complaints. So far a very satisfied HKJ customer. Not much else I can say, but if it goes pete tong I will report back.

 

[rafiki_]

Update for anyone interested. Got a reply back saying everything covered in full. Phew. Glad about that.
Can't say fairer than that. No complaints. So far a very satisfied HKJ customer. Not much else I can say, but if it goes pete tong I will report back.

Great result, and also echoes my own experience with HKJ. However, the warning signs are there for a serious claim, so I will be checking policy wording much more carefully in the future.

 

[jfm]

The policy that I have read from Yachting 24 part of the Pants Group clearly shows on page 2 of 3 Legal guidelines COMPLAINTS GO TO BERLIN .
No mention of any English jurisdiction or UK Ombudsman.
The point being that I do not doubt Jfm or Petem that Pantaenius on certain policies offer UK Ombudsman and others it appears a German version you have to check.
In the case debated this week involving the HKJ claim in Eastbourne IF that had been Pants on end of a potential complaint dependant on the Pants policy the complaint might end up in Berlin.
So clearly the lesson to all is to read the policy .
As I did not insure with them perhaps some one who has(yachting 24) can find out if they would accept a complaint to UK Ombudsman and post for all to read

Sandyshore you're talking complete craap here. If you buy a P policy in the UK it is written under English law and covered by UK FOS. Sure, if you're German or you have German nexus you can choose to buy a German policy and have disputes resolved in Germany. Pantaenius aren't going to (and have an obligation not to, under TCF) let a person established in the UK buy a German policy accidentally. Your whole point here is a complete non point.

 

[jfm]

Im happy to come out of the closet and admit to having bought HKJ insurance. I shall be reviewing the policy this weekend and deciding how to move forward....

Seriously, what is there to decide? I'm intrigued. The policy you've got doesn't cover you imho for a load of the "standard" risks that you face in the ordinary course of motorboating, and other policies will for broadly the same price.

What is there to decide?

Not picking a fight; I'm just wondering out of genuine interest why people hesitate!

 

[jfm]

So far ...

Excellent, very pleased to hear that your loss was covered under the policy.

So far I haven't used my liferaft but I bought quite a decent one. Just saying.

 

[petem]

Sandyshore you're talking complete craap here. If you buy a P policy in the UK it is written under English law and covered by UK FOS. Sure, if you're German or you have German nexus you can choose to buy a German policy and have disputes resolved in Germany. Pantaenius aren't going to (and have an obligation not to, under TCF) let a person established in the UK buy a German policy accidentally. Your whole point here is a complete non point.

Do FCA and OFT, have jurisdiction over Internet sales for a German based company? All looks very German to me....

http://www.yachting24.co.uk/yachting_en/index.php/content/view/62/149/lang,en/index.html

 

[Nigelpickin]

Seriously, what is there to decide? I'm intrigued. The policy you've got doesn't cover you imho for a load of the "standard" risks that you face in the ordinary course of motorboating, and other policies will for broadly the same price.

What is there to decide?

Not picking a fight; I'm just wondering out of genuine interest why people hesitate!

Not hesitating, policy is not to hand until weekend...
In terms of the decision, its a new policy, < 3 months and I need to review the cover then probably pm you for a recommendation jfm....
Its a 700k 'investment' so if I've made a mistake, it should probably be the last one....
Very glad for the heads up, albeit seemingly at the cost to some poor sole and very keen to pay more attention next time!

 

[jfm]

Do FCA and OFT, have jurisdiction over Internet sales for a German based company? All looks very German to me....

http://www.yachting24.co.uk/yachting_en/index.php/content/view/62/149/lang,en/index.html

No they don't, generally. I'd never heard of Y24 till you pointed me - it looks like Yachting24 GmbH is a German company selling insurance underwritten by German insurers incl the massive Allianz AG, all regulated and contracted in German, but they are selling it to Uk customers through a UK branch in Pantaenius UK's offices. OK, fair cop, but to make things 100% clear in case it wasn't obvious my recommendations are for insurance from Pantaenius UK Limited, not Yachting24Gmbh, all as per the link I gave above, and www.pantaenius.co.uk. I don't like the smell of Yachting24 insofar as it is being sold to non German nexus customers here in the UK, and wouldn't recommend that at all, and Pantaenius have gone down in my estimation for doing this. To be fair they disclose it clearly, so no subterfuge, but I still would recommend against buying such stuff unless you have enough German nexus

 

[petem]

No they don't, generally. I'd never heard of Y24 till you pointed me - it looks like Yachting24 GmbH is a German company selling insurance underwritten by German insurers incl the massive Allianz AG, all regulated and contracted in German, but they are selling it to Uk customers through a UK branch in Pantaenius UK's offices. OK, fair cop, but to make things 100% clear in case it wasn't obvious my recommendations are for insurance from Pantaenius UK Limited, not Yachting24Gmbh, all as per the link I gave above, and www.pantaenius.co.uk. I don't like the smell of Yachting24 insofar as it is being sold to non German nexus customers here in the UK, and wouldn't recommend that at all, and Pantaenius have gone down in my estimation for doing this. To be fair they disclose it clearly, so no subterfuge, but I still would recommend against buying such stuff unless you have enough German nexus

Looking at this again this morning, adding to JFM's comments, there's some things that I really don't like about Y24...

1) There's no link to the policy document on the web site
2) It's not clear to a customer what jurisdiction the sale falls under; the main site has a UK flag link to a co.uk address with an office in the UK but insurance provider is German. I'd wager that customers don't realise this.
3) Assuming you're dealing with a German co, then you won't benefit from the UK's "Treating Customers Fairly" regs (e.g. clearly defined complaints procedures), or protection from the UK Ombudsman and ultimately you'd have to take any action through the German courts.
4) I'd also suspect that they are avoiding the collection / payment of Insurance Premium Tax.

Another one to be avoided with a barge pole.

Pete

 

[Firefly625]

Seriously, what is there to decide? I'm intrigued. The policy you've got doesn't cover you imho for a load of the "standard" risks that you face in the ordinary course of motorboating, and other policies will for broadly the same price.

What is there to decide?

Not picking a fight; I'm just wondering out of genuine interest why people hesitate!

probably because they have paid out a sum of money....and until you need it, it really doesn't matter who you insure with.....!

I must say I do find this all very interesting/ horrifying! We insure Seabird with GJW, SWMBO was ACII accredited chartered insurer in her previous life and did read through our policy.... as did I. It seemed to provide good cover, I did look at changing to Pantaenius last year, but their quote had some wording that I was unsure of, and it was as near as damn it same at GJW so I did not go into it any further and stuck with what i had.

Going right back to Ben's post 1, have a friend who swears by Navigators and General... & a while back he recommended them to a friend of his who this year decided to run his Aquastar 118 up on a submerged breakwater in Holland and they have paid up in full for a substantial repair, no quibble.

 

[petem]

Going right back to Ben's post 1, have a friend who swears by Navigators and General... & a while back he recommended them to a friend of his who this year decided to run his Aquastar 118 up on a submerged breakwater in Holland and they have paid up in full for a substantial repair, no quibble.

I haven't looked at the policy in detail but from a quick glance it looks good to me. I also know Zurich Financial Services (who N&G are part of) well having previously been employed by them and know them to be a very honest and decent company. N&G have always enjoyed a lot of autonomy (they've always made a decent profit so have been left alone!) so I'm not sure if there's much Zurich influence over them. Despite that N&G used to be part of Eagle Star, another decent company who my family had close connections with (my dad was a director).

Pete

 

[jfm]

We insure Seabird with GJW,

As I've said before, I quite like the GJW policy. I'm just going on the one on their website for motorboats - actual policies might be different and/or endorsed, in which case ignore the below

The "seaworthy" condition is nicely written: it requires the policy holder to "exercise reasonable care to make and keep the Vessel in a seaworthy condition". That's hugely different from the other seaworthy clauses I've been complaining about. Your obligation is simply to exercise reasonable care. If unfortunately the vessel happens to be unseaworthy despite your reasonable care (which can happen, obviously) you are still insured

You have cover for pollution clean up equal to the boat value. In other words if you had an East Cowes Kahu incident you would have £xx cover full value for the boat value and another £xx for the pollution clean up. That seems sensible imho

You're still exposed imho unfortunately to total non insurance in the event a small part fails due to wear/corrosion/electrolysis and causes the whole boat to sink. Your call, but I wouldn't be happy with that

And I can't tell how far the GJW 3P cover goes. It says you are not insured for your 3P liability to "any person employed under a contract in connection with the Vessel" and from the context it is hard to be sure whether that exclusion applies only to (i) employees (ie where there is contract of employment twixt you and them) or whether it applies also to (ii) independent contractors that you hire eg Volvo Paul. Maybe MrsFirefly has a view? You could ask insurer for confirmation either way. I suspect the answer is (ii) and I therefore would choose not to accept this insurance policy if better is available, but that's partly cos I have lots of fixers and doers on my boat the whole time.

(The point here is that the meaning of the word "employed" is context dependent. It can have a wider meaning than merely cases where there is a PAYE style contract of employment. For example you could say "I employed the services of VolvoPaul to change my gearbox", or "the repair procedures Volvo Paul employed were very good" and both those would be perfectly good English. So you cannot be sure that your policy 3P exclusion is limited to cases where you have a PAYE style employer relationship with the injured person, and as I say I think it applies to general workers/fixers on your boat eg VP.)

 

[Galia]

Well the Pantaenius quote came back, just over twice what the renewal is with HJK ! However the proof of the pudding etc etc so once I get the rug-rats to bed, the rest of the evening will be spent reading I think.