who drives the sea trial ??

[scubajohn]

please excuse my post as i dont post simply because 99% has forgot more than ill ever no

im looking to upsize a gin palace would be nice ( i wish)
my question is, would a seller take the pre purchase sea trial with me as observer if asked. and to give some confidence to the seller i would pay up front for lift out survey etc so no tyre kicker !

 

[jrudge]

Based on my wn experience the dealer ( I have only ever bought new or stock boats) will take the boat off its mooring and put it back on but the rest is down to you within the bounds on not doing anything daft.

Some people have the surveyor on board, and he may drive for a while to see what it does.

When I have done sea trails I was interested I. No odd vibrations, no odd noises, that everything worked and that it hit the correct speed and revs.

 

[kcrane]

I've bought two used boats and in both cases had a surveyor/engineer check the boat over. There were four stages:
A good investigation of the boat on its berth, with the engines cold. The professionals check everything works as expected (to the degree they can, so for example they check the plotter powers up and displays a chart - they don't check the charts are up to date).
Then a sea trial, with the owner at the helm to take the boat off the berth. Then the surveyor politely asks he he can drive for a while, and then checks steering, tabs, speed at various revs, engine temps and pressures, performance with one engine etc. Then the owner takes over again while the pros take a look in the engine room while under way.
The boat is then lifted and the hull, shafts, props etc are checked.
Finally back to berth, again driven by owner, and then re-check around to see nothing amiss after the trial.

It all takes quite a while and I can imagine there are times when it ends up being more than one visit, especially for a larger, more complex boat.

I went along on both surveys but didn't take much part in proceedings, other than that all important chat with the surveyor at the end.

 

[dpb]

I have only had two sea trials.
The owner helmed on both.
On the first, at the end, he came into his berth faster tham expected, went to neutral and the engine died. he didn't try to restart it, crew jumped ashore and fended off in time, I thought nothing more of it.
After we bought it I realised that he came in fast as when hot the boat would cut out at tick over and he did not try to restart because he knew it wouldn't.
Turned out to be a 50p choke component luckily, though it took me weeks to work out!
Second time, the guy kept the high speed runs short as he probably knew the temp would rise if prolonged. Also he didn't use reverse when berthing or manouvering. Both not obvious at the time but clear when looking back.
Point being if it is normal for owner to drive, he knows the boats foibles!

 

[Greg2]

It is usual for the owner or his agent (e.g. Broker, friend, paid skipper etc) to take the boat but the trial is for you and your surveyor/engineer if present. I have done one with the surveyor (who happened to have an engineering background) and one on my own but briefed by the surveyor.

IMHO a trail is just that so I was very thorough on both, which meant running for good periods at wide open throttle to ensure that the engines didn't overheat and that nothing else went wrong. Both included good stints at the helm for me so that I could get a good feel for the boat and watch guages etc. I also had a good look around the engines to check for obvious leaks, excessive vibration etc.

Respecting the vendor and being polte is a given but if I couldn't be thorough and/or thought that efforts were being made to cover things up I woud endeavour to do things properly and if unsuccessful would probably walk away, not least because I have previously had my fingers burned (the trial was thorough and as we came back in there was a problem with a leg going into reverse so we identified the problem. My mistake was foolishly agreeing to the vendor repairing it and a botch job was done and it ultimately cost money to repair).

Bottom line is that if the vendor wants to sell it isn't unreasonable to expect a thorough trial and perhaps more importantly to negotiate a price reduction or professional repairs by an independent agent in the event that problems are revealed.

 

[Elessar]

please excuse my post as i dont post simply because 99% has forgot more than ill ever no

im looking to upsize a gin palace would be nice ( i wish)
my question is, would a seller take the pre purchase sea trial with me as observer if asked. and to give some confidence to the seller i would pay up front for lift out survey etc so no tyre kicker !

When I've sold boats, I always do sea trials myself as the owner , and on the basis you said, would have no hesitation in doing so.

I'm sometimes paid by a broker to do a sea trial as many instructors are. I will berth it, take it through locks if applicable etc. Would then let the prospective purchaser take the helm as much as they like, but keep an eye on them. Often an engineer or surveyor will request specific manoeuvres whilst they are upside down somewhere checking stuff.

 

[Andrew M]

I'd go along with most of the comments above.

Hopefully you do/will have a surveyor acting for you. If so and if the boat is out the water then he would carry out a dry land survey covering the condition of the boat in a static environment and without running engines. Once you and the vendor or broker agree that the purchase is still going ahead after getting and discussing the survey results, (ie: who is doing what to correct any defects found at that stage), you can then go to a sea trial, the lift in is usaully covered by the purchasor. On the sea trial you would expect the broker, yourself and your surveyor, sometimes the broker brings in a skipper to helm the boat. The survey is in effect "run" by your surveyor. It is an element of the complete survey process so he will have a list of all the things that need checking over and above his 1st part on dry land. You would ecxpect the broker to take the boat from the dock and at some point hand over for the surveyor and yourself to both do what you want to check it is performng correctly, warm up period ok ?, gear selection ?, temps generally?, a period at wot to check for fuel flow and high speed temps?, low speed and high speed handling ? Vibrations at all speed ranges ? etc etc.

Once you are happy with the running performance the roker would retake the helm and you all return to the dock for the surveyor to complete his on water checks. You then either wait for his final report or get the gist of it from him and discuss firther with the broker. I haven't bought privately but I guess if you do then just replace "broker" with "owner" in all the above.

Andy

 

[Andrew M]

Sorry, how long winded was that answer to a simple question ???

"my question is, would a seller take the pre purchase sea trial with me as observer if asked. and to give some confidence to the seller i would pay up front for lift out survey etc so no tyre kicker ! "

Yes, if you are buying privately then the vendor will most probably want to be there to helm the boat and will probably let you have a go in open water, depends on your surveyor as to if the dry land bit happens before or after sea trial and whether or not the surveyor attends the sea trial. If you do the sea trial with just you and the vendor, post up again on here and folk will give you a list of what to check.

Andy

 

[gjgm]

please excuse my post as i dont post simply because 99% has forgot more than ill ever no

im looking to upsize a gin palace would be nice ( i wish)
my question is, would a seller take the pre purchase sea trial with me as observer if asked. and to give some confidence to the seller i would pay up front for lift out survey etc so no tyre kicker !

All costs relating to the purchase are yours. If the boat is out, you would be expected to pay to lift it back in, (and out again , though if you complete the sale, maybe you don't want it out!). I think the seller would be ok to pay fuel, but this is a reasonably quick test, not a summer cruise with the family aboard !
Surveyors I think tend to be more structural, and may not be that willing to sign off on the engines etc, other than some limited inspection. If you want engines tested, you might need to find an engineer. Having said that, the sea trial, I think, is a last check on the boat, testing working order that you can't do without being underway- vibrations, overheating , leaking engines etc.
Some people say it also a chance to see if the boat "performs" how you expect. This I think needs to be understood by both parties from the outset. Personally, if you buy some sports monster and it won't get up and go, fair enough. But if you are looking to buy a standard boat with standard engines, then you should not be surprised if performance is standard. Not all agree on this point, but I don't think a sea trail is for you to decide if you want larger engines after all- unless you clear this with the owner. Otherwise it is too close to a get out of jail free card, IMHO.
If this is with a dealer/broker this might be ok, but in a private sale it is an agreement between the two of you -and you can agree on anything you like. There are some very standard purchase contracts that try to lay out responsibilities so that both parties get a fair deal and are equally protected. You can amend those as you and seller like, but remember that these contracts are devised to be fair to both parties from the outset, so altering them might be considered unfair. Most sellers will of course try to be accommodating, but you need to remain reasonable in your requests, IMHO.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

All costs relating to the purchase are yours. If the boat is out, you would be expected to pay to lift it back in, (and out again , though if you complete the sale, maybe you don't want it out!). I think the seller would be ok to pay fuel, but this is a reasonably quick test, not a summer cruise with the family aboard !
Surveyors I think tend to be more structural, and may not be that willing to sign off on the engines etc, other than some limited inspection. If you want engines tested, you might need to find an engineer. Having said that, the sea trial, I think, is a last check on the boat, testing working order that you can't do without being underway- vibrations, overheating , leaking engines etc.
Some people say it also a chance to see if the boat "performs" how you expect. This I think needs to be understood by both parties from the outset. Personally, if you buy some sports monster and it won't get up and go, fair enough. But if you are looking to buy a standard boat with standard engines, then you should not be surprised if performance is standard. Not all agree on this point, but I don't think a sea trail is for you to decide if you want larger engines after all- unless you clear this with the owner. Otherwise it is too close to a get out of jail free card, IMHO.
If this is with a dealer/broker this might be ok, but in a private sale it is an agreement between the two of you -and you can agree on anything you like. There are some very standard purchase contracts that try to lay out responsibilities so that both parties get a fair deal and are equally protected. You can amend those as you and seller like, but remember that these contracts are devised to be fair to both parties from the outset, so altering them might be considered unfair. Most sellers will of course try to be accommodating, but you need to remain reasonable in your requests, IMHO.

I think this depends on the surveyor. Jim Pritchard for example does include a degree of assessment of the engines as part of his standard survey, including oil analysis and sea trial. Apart from the checks mentioned by other posters above, he also includes a period of running at WOT (I forgot exactly how long, perhaps 5 mins) to ensure that the engines don't overheat at full load.

 

[scubajohn]

Hi all
Thanks to all the replys.
i think the first step should be a good look round then a sea trial, i wouldnt ask unless i was serious and and wanted that boat ,i would willing to pay for a couple hours fuel . Pay deposit subject to a satisfactory trial , lift out survey,back in at my expense of course. ps i would buy through a broker
My thinking is on a trial any problems found would be expensive regardless if minor faults, negotiate. A survey definitely, minor faults not a big problem. am i being reasonable

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Hi all
Thanks to all the replys.
i think the first step should be a good look round then a sea trial, i wouldnt ask unless i was serious and and wanted that boat ,i would willing to pay for a couple hours fuel . Pay deposit subject to a satisfactory trial , lift out survey,back in at my expense of course.
My thinking is on a trial any problems found would be expensive regardless if minor faults, negotiate. A survey definitely, minor faults not a big problem. am i being reasonable

You're not being unreasonable, but I think there is a slight redundancy in your approach - which is that you want to do a sea trial before anything else - and if you do proceed, the surveyor is going to want to do a sea trial of his own as part of his survey. This could get expensive if the boat needs to be lifted out again after your first sea trial.

If you definitely want that particular model of boat, then the normal process for a brokered sale is look round, make offer subject survey/sea trial, sign contract, pay deposit, survey/sea trial, complete purchase. When I bought my current boat this is exactly the process I went through, I went along on the sea trial because I wanted to hear what the surveyor had to say, but I didn't drive the boat (there was a professional skipper on board).

 

[gjgm]

Yep, sure Jimmy. I merely mention to OP that just because you have hired a "surveyor" does not mean he will agree to be an expert on everything.
In reality, just as with one's own ownership, the engines might be fine today and go wrong tomorrow. All you can check on the sea trial is that you haven't found a reasonably obvious problem. You are not getting some sort of assurance of the future.
5 mins at WOT.. blimey that is a stretch of calm water !