Seagreen
Well-Known Member
So what's the latest situation? Is white diesel becoming more available at quaysides or is the marine industry sticking its head in the sand?
White Diesel?
- Thread starter Seagreen
- Start date
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
As far as i know, the marine industry has not spent millions fitting second tanks so a few yachts can sail to Belgium. Neither have any of the ports and harbours that mainly service commercial boats told the commercial boys that they will no longer supply them with red diesel, as they have changed their tanks to white for the 3 yachts that also moor there.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
much as before.
we were there in whit w/e in May the maritime festival.
no Douane to be seen, i did have a full tank of white others we went with had red fuel. I am told that the Belgian Customs are short staffed & Antwerp takes priority.
we are just back from 4 weeks in France no sightings of Douane either, i did take on red in Jersey but also took on white 2 weeks later to get a receipt in France, the fuel "appeared white" in the sight gauge & water separator.
there is an issue in the Ipswich area ( to which Gus Lewis of the RYA is aware) that some filling stations will not allow you to take more than a few Lts of white away in fuel cans.one forumite has written to Suffolk trading standards & shell head office after he was refused fuel even though he was there on the forecourt with cans in a marina trolley.
its all a total farce
Searush
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I can just see the Ipswich Tractor Boys all rioting with Moletov Cocktails utilising milk bottles full of white diesel! I suppose life is so slow down there that a gently spreading patch of burning diesel looks like a fireball to them!
Rules is rules - regardless of what they were intended to achieve!
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
Sorry to say he's wasting his time. It would be illegal for them to sell a trolley load of diesel, whatever they intend to use it for.
Jabs
Well-Known Member
What a ******g mess!
Thank goodness I only burn a few litres a season!
Tony.
Thank goodness I only burn a few litres a season!
Tony.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
we will see
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrawong_Kid View Post
Suffolk Trading Standards, to whom I copied my letter of complaint to Shell requesting discretion, promptly replied stating that there are no restrictions in relation to diesel and that they would "have a word with her" (so I am arguing with you!)!
I appreciate that there are strict rules in relation to petrol and I was careful to mention that in my post.
I had seen your earlier posts on Scuttlebutt and realise that the Petroleum Regulations are a complicated nightmare. The irony of my situation was that having been refused service of "white" diesel in legal diesel containers, as per your posts, to be transported on a marina trolley direct to the yachts tank, I had no option but to go to a card operated self service station and subsequently illegally transport 30 litres of diesel in the back of my car.
A famous judge once commentated, " Laws are made for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools". I rest my case.
Last to first ...
You broke no laws transporting 30 litres of diesel in the back of your car
In fact, you'd have broken no laws if it had been 30 litres of petrol!
Although if you'd parked your car in your drive with 30 litres of petrol in the boot that would be illegal
But not if it was diesel
The problem has nothing to do with the law, or any regulations deriving there from. It is entirely to do with the wording of the standard Licence to Dispense Petroleum Spirit
And whoever you spoke to at Suffolk Trading Standards clearly doesn't properly understand the issue or didn't properly understand the question. Then again, most people who work in garages don't properly understand it either and simply blindly follow the instructions they've been given
(In our case, that would mean refusing to dispense fuel into UN pattern jerry cans which are legal but against company rules because its impossible to differentiate them from NATO pattern cans without a locking pin from the tills. On that one, I DO use discretion - breaking company rules is one thing (worst they can do is sack me ), breaking the law is another thing altogether)
The licence is issued by the Petroleum Officer (an obscure entity appointed by the Home Office IIRC whose powers and authority are largely delegated to Trading Standards) and the wording therein used to be extremely variable
BP, Shell et al agreed a set of standard licence conditions which unfortunately do NOT differentiate between petrol and diesel. The conditions with regard to dispensing into containers simply state "fuel"
In theory, it would be possible to get the licence conditions varied on a site by site basis but it is unlikely any major such as BP or Shell are going to go to that amount of aggravation - the problems it caused are precisely why they argued for and agreed a set of standard conditions!
An even less likely scenario is getting the standard terms changed. I wouldn't rate the chances of that happening since the authorities have a real fear of private individuals being able to obtain large quantities of petrol and diesel easily, Petrol makes fire-bombs and diesel is a primary constituent of ANFO
The rules, for want of a better word, are stupid and unenforceable anyway. After all, the simple answer is to fill up a 20 litre container at one forecourt, then fill up another one at the next forecourt.
__________________
Originally Posted by Kurrawong_Kid View Post
Suffolk Trading Standards, to whom I copied my letter of complaint to Shell requesting discretion, promptly replied stating that there are no restrictions in relation to diesel and that they would "have a word with her" (so I am arguing with you!)!
I appreciate that there are strict rules in relation to petrol and I was careful to mention that in my post.
I had seen your earlier posts on Scuttlebutt and realise that the Petroleum Regulations are a complicated nightmare. The irony of my situation was that having been refused service of "white" diesel in legal diesel containers, as per your posts, to be transported on a marina trolley direct to the yachts tank, I had no option but to go to a card operated self service station and subsequently illegally transport 30 litres of diesel in the back of my car.
A famous judge once commentated, " Laws are made for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools". I rest my case.
Last to first ...
You broke no laws transporting 30 litres of diesel in the back of your car
In fact, you'd have broken no laws if it had been 30 litres of petrol!
Although if you'd parked your car in your drive with 30 litres of petrol in the boot that would be illegal
But not if it was diesel
The problem has nothing to do with the law, or any regulations deriving there from. It is entirely to do with the wording of the standard Licence to Dispense Petroleum Spirit
And whoever you spoke to at Suffolk Trading Standards clearly doesn't properly understand the issue or didn't properly understand the question. Then again, most people who work in garages don't properly understand it either and simply blindly follow the instructions they've been given
(In our case, that would mean refusing to dispense fuel into UN pattern jerry cans which are legal but against company rules because its impossible to differentiate them from NATO pattern cans without a locking pin from the tills. On that one, I DO use discretion - breaking company rules is one thing (worst they can do is sack me ), breaking the law is another thing altogether)
The licence is issued by the Petroleum Officer (an obscure entity appointed by the Home Office IIRC whose powers and authority are largely delegated to Trading Standards) and the wording therein used to be extremely variable
BP, Shell et al agreed a set of standard licence conditions which unfortunately do NOT differentiate between petrol and diesel. The conditions with regard to dispensing into containers simply state "fuel"
In theory, it would be possible to get the licence conditions varied on a site by site basis but it is unlikely any major such as BP or Shell are going to go to that amount of aggravation - the problems it caused are precisely why they argued for and agreed a set of standard conditions!
An even less likely scenario is getting the standard terms changed. I wouldn't rate the chances of that happening since the authorities have a real fear of private individuals being able to obtain large quantities of petrol and diesel easily, Petrol makes fire-bombs and diesel is a primary constituent of ANFO
The rules, for want of a better word, are stupid and unenforceable anyway. After all, the simple answer is to fill up a 20 litre container at one forecourt, then fill up another one at the next forecourt.
__________________
prv
Well-Known Member
That seems plausible in the case of petrol, petrol bombs etc being potentially spur-of-the-moment things which might not get made if the perpetrator couldn't get petrol from a garage. But making high explosive is a deliberate planned act, and if you needed 200 litres of diesel for it you could just as well phone up one of the companies that deliver drums direct.
Pete
sailorman
Well-Known Member
HinewaisMan
Well-Known Member
Champagne Murphy
Well-Known Member
Went to Boulogne, Calais, Oostend, Breskens, Antwerp, Breskens and Oostend recently. Not a peep of problems, no questions asked and astonishment (in Oostend) when we asked. Didn't raise our heads too far above the parapet but I got the feeling that someone was perhaps making a point and is now evr so slightly embarrassed by the fuss.
PaulR
Well-Known Member
have been in breskens,oostende and niuwport over past week and glad to say no issues - was boarded by police in oostende who wanted to check passports and SSR and couldn't have been more pleasant to meet - had also made sure we had filled with white and kept receipts beforehand and got email from Belgian authorities confirming that was ok - naturally also ensured our spare tanks contained only white ,
Champagne Murphy
Well-Known Member
Gosh! So did you have entirely 'white' tanks then? Did they check them at all? Or were they just looking for correct UK 'tax paid' receipts? The worst we got was yelled at by Robert, the bosun at RNSYC, but there's nothing strange about that.
Spellign etid..
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
What sand? For 95% of outlets, there is nothing to care about.
I think this is right, and the whole situation was further inflamed by somebody around here writing snotty letters to Belgian officials, forcing them to stick to their guns.
Coaster
Well-Known Member
For anyone thinking of buying white diesel in cans you may like to know that we have been doing this for 3 years. We use 10l black plastic cans, of the type readily available in Halfords, filling between one and six at each visit to a fuel station forecourt.
We have never had a problem at any of the garages visited. They include BP, Tesco and several independents.
I can only suggest that if a particular garage doesn't want to sell you the amount of diesel required then go elsewhere. For most of us there are plenty of other garages to choose from.
At present I have two "10p off per litre" vouchers from Tesco and will be using one tomorrow.
We have never had a problem at any of the garages visited. They include BP, Tesco and several independents.
I can only suggest that if a particular garage doesn't want to sell you the amount of diesel required then go elsewhere. For most of us there are plenty of other garages to choose from.
At present I have two "10p off per litre" vouchers from Tesco and will be using one tomorrow.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Kurrawong_Kid
Well-Known Member
Only the first paragraph of Sailorman's Post, quoting me comes from me! The rest of his post is an explanation, either from him or someone else!
I have sent an e-mail to the legal department of the RYA, but have, as yet, had no reply. I expect they are all in Weymouth. No doubt I'll receive a reply in due course.
I have sent an e-mail to the legal department of the RYA, but have, as yet, had no reply. I expect they are all in Weymouth. No doubt I'll receive a reply in due course.
Champagne Murphy
Well-Known Member
Hbr Master if you please
I thought that at first but isn't he HM the legal bod in charge of the whole shebang ie Oostend harbour? The equivalent was the bosun at RHYC or possibly the berthmaster.
