White Diesel on the Orwell?

[Windhover]

Copied and pasted the following from Guapa's post on the Scuttlebut thread on Red Diesel, Belgium and the RYA

On the Orwell you can get marine diesel at Shotley, Suffolk Yacht Harbour, Woolverstone, Fox's and Ipswich.
That's five outlets stretched over about 8NM of river, servicing around 3000 yachts, and how many working boats? If it's more than a handful I would be very much surprised.
Four out of five outlets could switch to white without much trouble. And still everyone would be able to get what they require. There is no need for every outlet to offer both red and white.
Of course, they would have to get their tanks cleaned. And for some of the outlets I mentioned, that would not be a bad thing at all. Long overdue, in fact.

Just taking Guapa's point further, if just one outlet on the Orwell that was reasonably accessible like SYH or Woolverstone, could be persuaded to start selling white diesel, they might get themselves quite a lot of new business from the 3,000 yachts, and especially mobos, on the river. Does anyone think that we could work together to persuade just one outlet to do it, on the basis that it could be profitable for them? - could the ECF act as a catalyst to get this going?

I'm only an occasional poster, and not offering to "lead" this sort of campaign but interested to see what others think

 

[PaulGooch]

With red at circa £1 a litre using the 60/40 split and white circa £1.50 a litre if it was available at marina prices, i doubt the queue of mobo's would be too long.

 

[sailorman]

With red at circa £1 a litre using the 60/40 split and white circa £1.50 a litre if it was available at marina prices, i doubt the queue of mobo's would be too long.

also our white is priced to include a heavy element of non road related tax`s & duties, above what our European cousins pay

 

[Koeketiene]

In my post on SB I wanted to point out that if the government legislated that red diesel would no longer be legally available to leisure yachts the cost to marinas would be minimal (cleaning of the tanks) and that there would neither be the need/demand for every marina to offer both red and white.

I fear that trying to convince an Orwell marina to offer white on a voluntary basis would be a non-starter. Not enough demand, therefore no money in it.

Assuming there are 3000 boats in the Orwell area:
- How many get used on a regular basis/at all?
- A significant number of yotties are quite happy sticking to local waters.
- Of those venturing abroad, how many actually sail to Belgium?
- Landguard->Ostend: approx 80NM. That's quite a lot of diesel/beer tokens for a MoBo - especially if marinas charge their usual extra over the pump price.
- Again, taking into account the marina extra over the pump price, it's cheaper to get your white the other side of the Channel. We fuel once a year - either in Nieuwpoort or Blankenberge - and that's it for a season.

 

[Windhover]

Wrong Again!

As ever, a dose of logic beats my wishful thinking! Appreciate the replies though.

 

[GrumpyOldGit]

Just bung a load of central heating kerosene in your tank along with a bit of cheap engine oil and go wherever you like, looks like white diesel and costs 70p/litre
That'll show the chocolate eaters ...

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

In my post on SB I wanted to point out that if the government legislated that red diesel would no longer be legally available to leisure yachts the cost to marinas would be minimal (cleaning of the tanks) and that there would neither be the need/demand for every marina to offer both red and white.

I fear that trying to convince an Orwell marina to offer white on a voluntary basis would be a non-starter. Not enough demand, therefore no money in it.

Assuming there are 3000 boats in the Orwell area:
- How many get used on a regular basis/at all?
- A significant number of yotties are quite happy sticking to local waters.
- Of those venturing abroad, how many actually sail to Belgium?
- Landguard->Ostend: approx 80NM. That's quite a lot of diesel/beer tokens for a MoBo - especially if marinas charge their usual extra over the pump price.
- Again, taking into account the marina extra over the pump price, it's cheaper to get your white the other side of the Channel. We fuel once a year - either in Nieuwpoort or Blankenberge - and that's it for a season.

My bet is that they'll all go white.

Yes, lots don't go foreign, but they are largely a captive audience...

There will be lots of pressure from the percentage that do...

And the return of Dutch and Belgian visitors will offset any lost revenue.

Very much doubt that any will 'dual fuel'

There are only a couple of fishing vessels in Shotley and i'm sure they bunker up elsewhere at far more attractive rates!

 

[Koeketiene]

Just had a brilliant idea, my lord [/Baldrick]

Very much doubt that any will 'dual fuel'

Don't think so either - but which way will most of them go?

Just had a brilliant idea, my lord [/Baldrick]
Bear with me.

When we motored on red (till 2008) we have bunkered at all stations on the Orwell (bar Woolverstone).
Every time I've had to change the fuel filter within days/weeks of taking on diesel.
To be expected when there are 5 fuel stations on the Orwell all serving not very many customers. The turnover just isn't big enough - diesel remains in the tanks too long - tanks are hardly ever cleaned - ...

Why don't the Orwell marinas get together and decide on the location of one fuel station to service the entire Orwell area? Cost and revenue to be shared pro rata (say number of berths at each marina).
Turnover would be big enough and offering both red and white would be economically viable.

IMO, SYH would be the perfect location:
- access all state of tide and no lock
- nearly everyone passes by there, either on the way in or the way out

Like I said, just a (brilliant ) idea.

In Nieuwpoort (where I've been taking on diesel since 2009), there is one fuel station serving 3 marinas (approx 3500 boats).
The fuel is extremely clean - turnover is huge - tank gets cleaned once p/a (winter).

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Cant say taking a long keeler into SYH fills me full of enthusiasm!

 

[Koeketiene]

Cant say taking a long keeler into SYH fills me full of enthusiasm!

The SYH fuel pontoon is right at the entrance - can't see it being harder for a long keeler than locking in/out at Shotley

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

A straight lock in and out is easier than a turnabout from a fuel pontoon....

Academic I suspect, as i'll be surprised if Shotley don't go for white... Too many boats that do travel outside of UK waters.

 

[MoodySabre]

Some non-Orwellians would also get fuel at SYH or wherever. I can't see Bradwell changing - lots of fishing boats and a limited budget (apparently). I'll ask them on Friday but expect a rude reply

 

[Sixpence]

Another thought though slightly touched on by Neil, but where do the fishing boats get their fuel ?

 

[sailorman]

Another thought though slightly touched on by Neil, but where do the fishing boats get their fuel ?

Just how many commercial fishing boats are there on the Orwell, not many

 

[Koeketiene]

Another thought though slightly touched on by Neil, but where do the fishing boats get their fuel ?

See below

Why don't the Orwell marinas get together and decide on the location of one fuel station to service the entire Orwell area? Cost and revenue to be shared pro rata (say number of berths at each marina).
Turnover would be big enough and offering both red and white would be economically viable.

 

[wingdiver]

In Nieuwpoort (where I've been taking on diesel since 2009), there is one fuel station serving 3 marinas (approx 3500 boats).
The fuel is extremely clean - turnover is huge - tank gets cleaned once p/a (winter).

To be honest, apart from buying a load of diesel at 54p a litre in Guernsey a couple of years ago (who wouldn't at that price), we have always bought ours from Foxs as they correctly add treatment products to each load and there is a huge throughput with Oysters bunkering there.
Never ever had an issue with their fuel.

 

[Leighb]

We and most of our friends at RHYC use Woolverstone for diesel.

AFAIK no-one has reported any problems there with dirty fuel, they have quite a good turnover I would think.

It is probably the easiest access on the river as you don't have to "enter" the marina to go alongside the fuel jetty. There is one caveat, there is a rather shallow patch just downstream of the jetty to be wary of when approaching/departing close to LW.

Obviously if you are based at SYH or Shotley there is no point in coming upriver just to take on fuel.

 

[PaulGooch]

I'm no longer based at Shotley, but if i was, i wouldn't be too pleased to have to go to SYH and refuel. Not only would it take me an hour to get there and back at the 6kt speed limits, it would cost me in fuel. One of the attractions of berthing at Shotley is the fact it's so close to the sea, having to go to SYH AND back every trip would make Shotley a poor choice of marina.

Us mobo's have to refuel every trip

 

[PaulGooch]

As far can i can see, Tillergirl has it right, on the surface of things. But, i can't help thinking that the 60/40 split was devised for what might be other than obvious reasons. It isn't like the Gov't to miss a chance of a few quid, so giving away the duty on 40% of the marine fuel sold seems a touch out of character. Could it be that it's the only way they could give some small concession to the marine industry ?

It's ok some of you saily types stating that paying duty on all of your annual pint of diesel is neither here not there, but it would be to mobo drivers. Strictly speaking, everyone should only be declaring 60/40 if that's what they estimate they use. But we all know (HMRC included) that 99.9999999999999% of boaters, sail or power, claim the 60/40 whatever they use it for. Since the introduction of the increase in duty and the 60/40 split, the fuel costs for a boat have rocketed, increases in fuel prices have been compounded by the additional duty. Add to that the credit crunch and we see lots of empty berths in marinas that previously had waiting lists for years (most, if not all, of the Orwell marinas for instance). In 2008 we just managed to get a swinging mooring at Pin Mill, a pontoon berth was out of the question, 2010 and we could have had a pontoon in any of the Orwell marinas we chose. 2012 and we can choose from a selection of berths.

With the 60/40 split, red is circa £1 a litre. No split and it's £1.40 odd and if they switched to white it would be at least £1.50 per litre. For those with yachts who only use 100 litres a year, what's another £50 ? A 12-14 meter mobo is going to burn anything up to 200 litres an hour. Even an "economical" 10 metre flybridge cruiser will burn 100 or so an hour, circa 5 litres per nm. Mine "only" uses 2 litres a mile. A Thames trip from Shotley and we'd use about 400 litres of fuel, say £400. Not cheap, but at £600 for white it's game over for us. The same would apply to many mobos. The marinas would lose out on berthing fees, revenue from fuel etc etc. Services and maintenance would most likely suffer and mooring fees would almost certainly have to go up too.

The seemingly simple and logical fix to the current mess would be to ban the use of red for propulsion in leisure boats. Marinas could have a single white tank and commercial users could reclaim the duty, or have a system where they are exempt from paying it in the first place. Or, their fuel could be duty free and dyed at the marina. Any boat could be fitted with a second tank for using red for heating purposes. That's simple and logical, until you consider the impact on the marine industry.

Why can't the UK set it's own duty for marine fuel ? Why could we not charge a level of duty that made our marine fuel the same price as Belgium marine fuel ? Why can't we then dye that fuel a unique colour (not red or green) to signify that it is marine fuel and not for road use ? This would surely be the simplest of all solutions. Marinas run stocks of red to a minimum, have the tanks cleaned and fill them with Gas Oil dyed orange (or whatever). Gas oil is what we use now, dyed red, so no FAME issues and complies with current sulphur regs. Pricing would be in line with what we pay now, so no financial impact on boaters and the industry. Clear identification for other EU countries. HMRC could even check UK boats to make sure they are not running on non-duty paid red supplied by the local farmer.

Reason why ? Because EU directives won't allow it and UK gov't was too stupid to get a directive that would allow it.

Reason the EU dreamt the directive up in the first place ? To stop countries like Belgium setting lower levels of duty than it's neighbours, who then nipped across the border for cheap Belgium fuel.

Sooner the Euro disappears up it's own transom the better, IMO.

 

[Koeketiene]

I'm no longer based at Shotley, but if i was, i wouldn't be too pleased to have to go to SYH and refuel. Not only would it take me an hour to get there and back at the 6kt speed limits, it would cost me in fuel. One of the attractions of berthing at Shotley is the fact it's so close to the sea, having to go to SYH AND back every trip would make Shotley a poor choice of marina.

Us mobo's have to refuel every trip

SYH was only a suggestion and it would seem that you can not please everyone all of the time.

The reasoning behind SYH as a central location was the following:
1. No lock - having been a berth holder both at Shotley and Ipswich Haven I have found myself spending considerable time waiting to lock in/out. Can you imagine the amount of time you could be spending hanging around waiting to lock in/out when the lock not only has to deal with berth holders, but also with boats coming in to fuel? Especially Shotley, where you can lock in 4 or 5 boats at a time (at best - depending on size).
2. If you think there's no room to park at SYH, you can forget about Fox's.
And I must also declare an interest: Guapa's berthed near the fuel pontoon and we had her Awlgripped the year before last. She looks nice, shiny and unblemished - I would like to keep her that way.
Also, with the amount of commercial traffic they get (Wincat, etc...) Fox's seem to be a likely candidate to keep red regardless.
3. Woolverstone could also be a possibility provided they get rid of that speedbump you can encounter at LW. But Woolverstone would be even further upriver to travel for Shotley boats.

And that's how I arrived at my SYH suggestion.