which rig? Bermudan or gunter?

[mezereon]

Really expected to be taken up on my assertions...QUOTE]
OK, I'll bite. How does that work? I thought the gaff, sails and lines would all blow away to leeward making a horrible mess.

 

[maxcampbell]

The weight of the gaff brings the top of the sail down, depowering it instantly. It wasn't something we'd expected, but we never bother heading up to drop the main, whether to stow or take in a reef, but we do to raise it.

 

[chinita]

Dylan, my mind's eye keeps seeing your boats (slug and the minstrel's) with junk rig.

I agree. I don't know why he does not just go for a Coromandel at half the price.

I would.

 

[prv]

OK, I'll bite. How does that work? I thought the gaff, sails and lines would all blow away to leeward making a horrible mess.

The difference from a conventional mast is that there's no track, the mast is simply a cylindrical pole. The gaff jaws sit around it, and the luff of the sail is held to it not by a boltrope or sliders in a track, but by a lacing or solid hoops around the mast. None of these things care which way the boat underneath the mast is pointing, they'll still slide quite happily up and down their round pole.

Were the mast free-standing, you'd be able to hoist and lower the sail downwind of it, whatever the angle of the boat. Junk rigs can. Gaffers bigger than a small dinghy will have shrouds, so the sail can't swing forward of the mast. So the sail comes down easily with the wind anywhere forward of the beam; if I have the wind on the beam and want to lower the main I just do, even if I have room to turn head to wind I just don't need to. With the wind aft of the beam, the sail has to come down full. It will still do so, but it's a bit messy, graunching against the shrouds. So I avoid this if possible, but it is still an option.

Pete

 

[dylanwinter]

too heavy

I agree. I don't know why he does not just go for a Coromandel at half the price.

I would.

I think that a junk rig requires a lot of weight and windage up high

and.....

aesthetically they leave me stone cold

Dylan

 

[Fantasie 19]

I think that a junk rig requires a lot of weight and windage up high

and.....

aesthetically they leave me stone cold

Dylan

...agreed... more than any other a real "marmite" rig...

 

[BobPrell]

I think that a junk rig requires a lot of weight and windage up high

Point taken, but peeps should realize weight aloft is not all a bad thing. It can make the motion of a vessel more comfortable. It's about rotational inertia.
2210 Edited to add -- I should mention that gaff/gunter/junk rigs lower a more significant amount of the weight/windage when they reef.

aesthetically they leave me stone cold

Dylan

That's your taste, I won't try to change it, but will say some people, a significant minority I hope, find it appealing.

 

[dylanwinter]

well done Bob

Point taken, but peeps should realize weight aloft is not all a bad thing. It can make the motion of a vessel more comfortable. It's about rotational inertia.


That's your taste, I won't try to change it, but will say some people, a significant minority I hope, find it appealing.

good, rational answers

of course I assume that a gunter has a fair bit of wight up high

vertainly when you lift the bermudan mast it is pretty light

then lift the shorter mast for the gunter - and add the gaff(if that the right word) it adds up

D

 

[chrisedwards]

I think that a junk rig requires a lot of weight and windage up high

and.....

aesthetically they leave me stone cold

Dylan

There is no rig uglier than a pointy and stressed bermudan. It represents the triumph of technology and brute force over subtlety and the genius of a simple solution.

Aesthetically, for me, there is only the junk rig though gaff/gunter is also fairly pleasing to the eye.

 

[Norman_E]

I'm not sure if anyone else raised this issue, but as the boat was designed with a gunter rig, surely converting it to bermudan sloop moved the centre of effort forward, so the obvious question is which rig gives the best balance on the helm? Other things being equal I would look at the big advantage of the gunter rig when it comes to lowering the mast and transporting the boat on a trailer. The shorter spars must be easier then.

 

[maxcampbell]

Is Dylan still deciding or is he holding out on announcing the decision

If he's well enough funded, in the sad circumstances, to still choose, then forget the junk (rig & words), and lets join in with useful contributions.

I've had my say - gunter gives the seamanlike advantages of being able to drop & shorten sail, even when surfing downwind about to gybe or broach.

It also allows single-handed dropping of the mast, as long as it's in a tabernacle. (plus storage when trailing, tho' not convinced this is significant.)

Burmudan gives the advantage of pointing higher. I worked it out once: tacking through 100deg needs a multiplier of 1.6 times distance in a straight line; tacking through 90deg needs a multiplier of 1.5 times (this may be imprecise, I can't find my workings now), but the upshot was, don't pinch, sail full & by.

We all like to be able to point high, and we all imagine that 5deg allowing us to lee-bow a tide fairly frequently, but having sailed with a gaff for the last 3 years, I am more than happy to lay off that pointing ability against the sail-dropping and mast dropping abilities, and would go for a gaffer ( / gunter) every time.

 

[davidej]

Saw a Liberty/Minstrel out in the Blackwater today.

It had two unstayed masts each with a proper boom and a 'mainsail'- ie no jib or staysail

cat rigged ???

looked very nice. I am afraid to say we overtook it but we are almost twice the length.

Fabulous sailing day - best this year so far

 

[BobPrell]

Saw a Liberty/Minstrel out in the Blackwater today.

It had two unstayed masts each with a proper boom and a 'mainsail'- ie no jib or staysail

cat rigged ???

looked very nice

Yes indeed.
I searched and found the Hunter Liberty & Minstrel Owners Association.
Very nice pix of a cat-ketch.
Also some text saying there is a gaff rigged version, which is close to the same photo we have thought was gunter.

 

[westernman]

.... two unstayed masts each with a proper boom and a 'mainsail'- ie no jib or staysail

This looks like it might be pretty quick.....

 

[BobPrell]

This looks like it might be pretty quick.....

Oooh yeah, also fast and balanced downwind without launching any extra sails or poles.

 

[dylanwinter]

It looks like a gunter to me

picking up the boat tomorrow

it is coming home here

needs some electrics, a new Origo single burner, a new outboard

I will not decide until I have swung both ways for a while

although the gunter/high peak gaff seems more sensible for the bridges

no roller reefing on the gunter at the moment

I expect the boat to spend some time here while I use the slug on the Humber

anyone want to buy a lightly used famous classic boat

Inboard engine

good sails

Dylan



PBO want to do an item comparing the two

 

[operator6]

I think that a junk rig requires a lot of weight and windage up high

and.....

aesthetically they leave me stone cold

Dylan

Not as much weight as is generally thought, very easy to reef/raise, beating is even easier, and so on. However, as it's a question of aesthetics, I'll leave it at that. For me, beautiful!

Look forward to your new videos!

 

[davidej]

picking up the boat tomorrow

it is coming home here

needs some electrics, a new Origo single burner, a new outboard

I will not decide until I have swung both ways for a while

although the gunter/high peak gaff seems more sensible for the bridges

no roller reefing on the gunter at the moment

I expect the boat to spend some time here while I use the slug on the Humber

anyone want to buy a lightly used famous classic boat

Inboard engine

good sails

Dylan



PBO want to do an item comparing the two

Presumably it is set up for one mast rather than two?

Did both rigs (ie Bermudian and gunter) come with the boat?

 

[dylanwinter]

they did

Presumably it is set up for one mast rather than two?

Did both rigs (ie Bermudian and gunter) come with the boat?

as I understand the tall bermudan was designed by David Thomas

I am hoping to get PBO to commission an item comparing the two rigs for cruising

the wooden gunter spars are loaded onto the trailer at the moment

they look really heavy compared to the slug's pea stick or the long mast for the bermudan

At the moment the roller reefing from the gunter has been canibalised to be used on the bermudan so I need to decanibalise it or get hold of a replacement

I also need to sell the slug to release funds to buy an outboard

of course pedants will accuse me of being an ignoramus for calling the rig a gunter and for missing the i from bermudan

the pedants are correct because it never pays to argue with a pedant

Dylan

 

[Poignard]

There is no rig uglier than a pointy and stressed bermudan. It represents the triumph of technology and brute force over subtlety and the genius of a simple solution.

Aesthetically, for me, there is only the junk rig though gaff/gunter is also fairly pleasing to the eye.

If I was having a new small yacht built I think I would go for junk rig for the sheer ease of handling. I saw yours being manouvered single-handed in Newtown Creek a few years ago and it looked so effortless.