Which GPS? HDS-5m, CP300i, 551

[prv]

I have to say that, having a degree in electronic engineering and having worked as a computer engineer in the past, plus being a radio amateur for the last thirty-odd years, I had never come across a single serial port that was capable of operating at different speeds on send and receive until I looked at some modern chart plotters!

I know, but from the user's point of view, these aren't single ports with bidirectional capability, they're a collection of independent inputs and outputs. You have "x NMEA input pairs and y NMEA output pairs", not "max(x, y) two-way ports". Looked at like this, the speed restriction seems artificial. They could (and probably should) have used two hardware serial devices so that they could run them at different speeds.

The plotter supports AIS, so it's highly likely that the input will need to be set to 38400. Everything else that NMEA is used for runs at 4800, so the output will need to be set to that. With a single serial chip, you're effectively reduced to using only one of these in any given installation. Daft design to save a few pence.

Pete

 

[pvb]

I'm not 100% sure there are no other differences though.

Such as?

 

[maby]

I know, but from the user's point of view, these aren't single ports with bidirectional capability, they're a collection of independent inputs and outputs. You have "x NMEA input pairs and y NMEA output pairs", not "max(x, y) two-way ports". Looked at like this, the speed restriction seems artificial. They could (and probably should) have used two hardware serial devices so that they could run them at different speeds.

The plotter supports AIS, so it's highly likely that the input will need to be set to 38400. Everything else that NMEA is used for runs at 4800, so the output will need to be set to that. With a single serial chip, you're effectively reduced to using only one of these in any given installation. Daft design to save a few pence.

Pete

I suppose so, but then again, Lowrance would probably say that this is their entry level model and you get multiple ports on the HDS8.

 

[FWB]

I have Lowrance HDS 7m with Comar 2-2000 AIS receiver. Only took a couple of minutes to connect via N2K bus. Works very well.

 

[winsbury]

A very full reply from Standard Horizon details why you should not use a GX2150 in Europe and why they wont be making the same functionality available to the GX2100E, the pertinent points are below:

"There are hardware difference between the GX2150 and GX2100E which would require re approval at an approx. cost of £16,000:

Due to the high costs of approval there are no plans to make the GX2150 available in Europe and the UK. The demand for this model is not sufficient as the GX2100E used with 3rd party NMEA0183 multiplexers can provide the same connectivity as the GX2150

As you are based in Europe the rules are not the same as a US ship temporarily being in European waters:

Standard Horizon products marine VHF radios manufactured to FCC specification for USA market are not approved for use in Europe.
FCC and CE approvals are different, with European approvals are more stringent than USA with immunity, radiated limits in terms of SAR (absorption of radio waves by the human body) and safety standard being more difficult to pass in Europe.

These requirements add additional cost to the European product.
However this extra cost results in a product that has a better immunity against external transmissions and lower radiated emissions.

It is against the law in the UK and Europe to use a non CE approved product.
Also if the radio has DSC calling with access to emergency services, it is also an offence to put into use a product, which does not have an applicable approval. This is covered under Article 3.3e of the European R&TTE directive. FCC approval does not convey such approval

There is no worldwide warranty on these products; therefore, any problems with the unit will require return of the unit to the USA. Also normally we do not support in any way a US Marine VHF as it may be seen as encouraging the use of non CE approved marine equipment.

Marina Channels; The USA marine VHF as standard does not have our Marine channels M (37) and M2 fitted. These channels cannot be activated by the user; they have to be computer programmed by special software and programming equipment.

Finally if you are planning to travel through European waterways you will need to use a system called ATIS. ATIS (Automatic Transmitter Identification System) mode is a signalling protocol used on the inland waterways of Europe that enables the authorities to identify each transmission. From January 2009 the relevant authorities of each country have insisted on all vessels having ATIS Mode enabled on their radios. Only approved European radios have the facility for the user to enable and disable ATIS mode and program your ATIS number"

So that explains why the GX2100E is more expensive with less features and there is no plans to extend the features to include the functions of the GX2150. Shame. Oh well, might as well buy Icom then and get a better RF performance.

 

[pvb]

So that explains why the GX2100E is more expensive with less features and there is no plans to extend the features to include the functions of the GX2150. Shame.

Depends whether you believe it or not! The CE approval process is a convenient way of trying to ensure that the US-market products, which are sold at much lower prices, don't find their way into the European market, where prices are fixed at much higher levels. I don't believe that the US-market products are significantly different from the CE marked models.

 

[maxi77]

Depends whether you believe it or not! The CE approval process is a convenient way of trying to ensure that the US-market products, which are sold at much lower prices, don't find their way into the European market, where prices are fixed at much higher levels. I don't believe that the US-market products are significantly different from the CE marked models.

The CE process is not that difficult and is self awarded, it is little more than a statement by the manufacturer that the product meets basic safety levels. Quite a few less scupulous companies just put it on the product anyway without any checks and just hope for the best, anyway by the time any one finds out they have cashe the letter of credit

 

[maby]

I have Lowrance HDS 7m with Comar 2-2000 AIS receiver. Only took a couple of minutes to connect via N2K bus. Works very well.

We have similar but with a Garmin AIS - took longer to screw the box to the bulkhead than it did to cable it up.

 

[winsbury]

regardless of CE and RF interference issues ( which I agree are both red herrings ) the lack of M1/2 and ATIS features is significant, whether these features alone are enough to justify another 300 quid to get an approved unit plus multiplexer rather than a US model I think is arguable. Its certainly enough money to make even me think very carefully about whether its better to comply or have a system that meets my real-world needs.

More food for thought:

Its definitely illegal to market non CE marked goods in Europe but is it illegal to use them if you own them as a private user ?...

What happens if your non CE approved equipment cause a problem, for example are your insurers going to cover you in the event of an accident that results from using non-compliant equipment ? ...

I dont think these questions are big issues when considering quality mainstream brands but there are certainly some very flaky two-way radios available from China that allow access to almost any frequency, clearly these would infringe even basic safety of the airwaves.

 

[pvb]

If you look at the transmitter specs for the GX2100E and the GX2150, they're identical.

As far as SAR safety is concerned, I believe that the US market's FCC standard is OET 65(c) which has a safe limit of 1.6W/kg. I think the CE standard is EN50385 which has a safe limit of 2.0W/kg. So it would appear that the European standard is less stringent than the US one!

 

[maxi77]

regardless of CE and RF interference issues ( which I agree are both red herrings ) the lack of M1/2 and ATIS features is significant, whether these features alone are enough to justify another 300 quid to get an approved unit plus multiplexer rather than a US model I think is arguable. Its certainly enough money to make even me think very carefully about whether its better to comply or have a system that meets my real-world needs.

More food for thought:

Its definitely illegal to market non CE marked goods in Europe but is it illegal to use them if you own them as a private user ?...

What happens if your non CE approved equipment cause a problem, for example are your insurers going to cover you in the event of an accident that results from using non-compliant equipment ? ...

I dont think these questions are big issues when considering quality mainstream brands but there are certainly some very flaky two-way radios available from China that allow access to almost any frequency, clearly these would infringe even basic safety of the airwaves.

I don't think there is any problem using non CE marked stuff as we used to used experimental kit which could have been marked but we didn't bother as it involved making new labels. On the otherhand I think it is illegal to use non type approved radio kit though unless you cause serious problems that they would ever find you, Mind you not having M1&2 would be a serious inconvenience for many people

 

[winsbury]

I think I may have found the solution that doesnt break the bank and gets all the legal stuff covered and opens up the possibility to add more N2K gizmos as time goes by:

Use the NMEA 0183 port full duplex at 4800 as nature intended for GPS and DSC sentences:

GX2100E 4800bps --> DSC data --> HDS5M
GX2100E <-- GPS data <-- 4800bps HDS5M

Convert the NMEA 0183 HS output with the AIS sentences from the GX2100E to N2K to connect into the Plotter:

GX2100E 38400bps --> Actisense NGW1AIS --> AIS data --> N2K HDS5M
Obviously I will also need a N2K backbone, terminators, tees and drop cables.

http://www.yachtbits.com/actisense/_ngw_1_ais_nmea0183_to_nmea2000_gateway_for_ais.php

I have no idea if this will work in practice but I feel a whole lot happier using Actisense equipment rather than Brookhouse who frankly seem to be a bunch of amateurs from my experience trying to communicate / buy from them so far.

Anyone have any thoughts as to whether this arrangement will work ?

 

[maby]

I think I may have found the solution that doesnt break the bank and gets all the legal stuff covered and opens up the possibility to add more N2K gizmos as time goes by:

Use the NMEA 0183 port full duplex at 4800 as nature intended for GPS and DSC sentences:

GX2100E 4800bps --> DSC data --> HDS5M
GX2100E <-- GPS data <-- 4800bps HDS5M

Convert the NMEA 0183 HS output with the AIS sentences from the GX2100E to N2K to connect into the Plotter:

GX2100E 38400bps --> Actisense NGW1AIS --> AIS data --> N2K HDS5M
Obviously I will also need a N2K backbone, terminators, tees and drop cables.

http://www.yachtbits.com/actisense/_ngw_1_ais_nmea0183_to_nmea2000_gateway_for_ais.php

I have no idea if this will work in practice but I feel a whole lot happier using Actisense equipment rather than Brookhouse who frankly seem to be a bunch of amateurs from my experience trying to communicate / buy from them so far.

Anyone have any thoughts as to whether this arrangement will work ?

Should work - and will give you the advantage of an N2k backbone for future expandibility.

 

[pvb]

Anyone have any thoughts as to whether this arrangement will work ?

It would work, but why not save £100 and use an Actisense NGW-1-ISO gateway?

 

[prv]

It would work, but why not save £100 and use an Actisense NGW-1-ISO gateway?

Since the NGW-1-AIS he's proposing is £104, the only way he can save £100 with the NGW-1-ISO is if it costs £4 or less. Which seems unlikely.

Pete

 

[RobbieH]

Lowrance and Navman

Are you sure about the lack of filters? We have an HDS7m with the latest firmware loaded and the fix seems pretty stable.

+1

I fitted a 7m last year for our annual trip. 7m is below decks and is attached to a 3G radar and a rate compass via NMEA2k (so we have MARPA). I also have a 6 inch Navman in the instrument panel above the companionway (had to do a bit of fibre glassing to extend height of instrument panel but it looks "right").

I prefer the Lowrance to the Navman because the refresh, etc is faster. It also works fine on the internal GPS (even down below) although sometimes it is a bit slow to get a fix from cold start. Some of the Navionics chart symbols take a bit of getting used to (overfalls, for example) and sometimes the UI feels a bit to videogames (rendered icons for waypoints).

I think the 5m also supports radar and MARPA so if that functionality is on your potential shopping list (maybe not on a smaller boat) it could be useful to consider. I cannot praise the 3G with MARPA highly enough. We had one day of extremely dense fog and it picked out every target way before we could see them (vis about 50-100 meters). Sail boats, small fishing boats and coasters. Tracking with MARPA helped remove some stress. If you want to extend your system in other ways I guess NMEA2K is interesting. I'm also thinking about adding the entertainment system that Lowrance sell as an add-on. Might be difficult wresting back control of the radar when my teenage daughter wants to play with the music system so might not be a good idea

Regarding the Navman I know they are out of business now but it may be possible still to pick up one of their plotters (cheap). The plotter has been very reliable (unlike the instrument systems ). The interesting thing for you might be that the 5xxx series are orientated with the "long" side vertical. So you can fit a big plotter in a relatively small horizontal space as long as you have enough vertical real estate.

 

[mersey]

If you're going NMEA 2000 anyway, why not just get a Lowrance LVR-880 which does N2K (around £160), then you have the 0183 feed just for a cheap AIS engine.

 

[winsbury]

If you're going NMEA 2000 anyway, why not just get a Lowrance LVR-880 which does N2K (around £160), then you have the 0183 feed just for a cheap AIS engine.

Funny you should say that, I was looking at the LVR series last night and there's some neat integration on the sets. In fact the more I look at Standard Horizons equipment in detail the more I can see the areas they have cut corners in order to increase features for the same money - for example the NMEA 0183 outputs are all unbalanced (rs232) whereas all the 'big' brands used proper RS422 balanced signals which are far less prone to interference. Also they dont seem to have any commitment to N2K which I'm beginning to really see the advantages of: much simpler interconnects; distributed power etc., although I am apalled at the price of the T pieces and cables etc.

BTW I finally got a response from Brookhouse having tracked down a phone number and rang the guy ( it seems to be mom+pop operation which explains a lot ) - their NMUX-AIS comes in at £163 plus £28 shipping but of course HMCE will add 20% vat to that plus a £12 handling fee which bumps it up to £241 - just to convert signals and introduce another point of failure ... I dont think so.

I started this thread almost determined to buy Standard Horizon equipment based on the feature list, but have gradually been turned over to Lowrance which I am genuinely surprised by. I have the plotter on my desk at the moment and am playing with all the settings - this is one seriously good bit of kit, worth every penny I reckon and will more than do what I will ever need of it. The screen is amazing and refresh is almost instant, I hadnt realised it had all those neat split screen functions too.

 

[FWB]

I have added an LGC4000 GPS to my 7m. A huge improvement on position error from the internal GPS.
You may find this information about Lowrance units useful, or not....
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/003037.html

 

[maby]

Something else about the Lowrances which they simply do not publicise at all is their gateway functionality. Each Lowrance plotter has one or more NMEA0183 ports, an NMEA2000 port and an ethernet port. All data received on any of those ports is gatewayed out onto the other two - we have two Lowrance plotters networked by NMEA2k with speed and depth instruments connected to the NMEA0183 port of one plotter and a VHF DSC connected to the 0183 of the other plotter. We also have a Raymarine autopilot with Raymarine control head on the NMEA2k network. Everything in the boat can see everything else! Each plotter just sits there quietly translating all the data it receives on any of its ports and sending it back out on the other ports.