paul.norton
Well-Known Member
Sorry Sarabande, I think you misread the Honda paper.
Only similar sized models of generator may be paralleled.
Regards
Paul
Only similar sized models of generator may be paralleled.
Regards
Paul
Which generator
- Thread starter Paddydog`1
- Start date
KevB
Well-Known Member
All depends what you want to run on it. Microwaves for instance and electronic equipment may not like the sine wave from a standard generator. A kipor digital generator/inverter would solve the problem as it produces a pure sine wave.
http://www.criticalpowersupplies.co.uk/manufacturers/Kipor-Diesel-generatorrs-silent-generators/Kipor-Petrol-Digital-Generator-Set-IG2000?gclid=CPD558vb7roCFfSWtAodFAwA2g
http://www.criticalpowersupplies.co.uk/manufacturers/Kipor-Diesel-generatorrs-silent-generators/Kipor-Petrol-Digital-Generator-Set-IG2000?gclid=CPD558vb7roCFfSWtAodFAwA2g
cliff
Well-Known Member
I have run a honda 2.0 and a Kipor 3000Ti (2.6 ) side by side and could not tell the difference in noise level for the same power draw until over 1.6kw where the honda gave up. Even on full load the Kipor was quiet to the point with it sitting in the cockpit one can sit below and hold a normal conversation and barely hear the genny. Another tip is to fix a length of Eber exhaust to the genny exhaust - the difference in noise level is noticeable - I have a 40" length that is a nice tight push fit over the Kipor exhaust. If anyone wants to take their blinkers off and look at what is available see the links above or do a forum search on Kipor - there are several interesting threads on the subject of alternatives to the (IMHO) over priced, over rated, hondas, but hey it is your money and if you have money to burn and the little red one floats your boat - go for it. Personally I prefer go get value for my money.
pvb
Well-Known Member
There are, of course, other "suitcase" generators which use the respected Honda engines and are considerably cheaper, such as the SDMO range.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
Good idea planning to having something to charge batteries in addition to alternator. Relatively few shorepower points above Tobermory and they tend to be quite far apart (e.g. Kyleakin, Gairloch, Kinlochbervie, Stornoway).
Choice of 1kW or 2kW generator obviously depends on how much you want to spend, how much flexibility you want and systems on your boat.
e.g. You could fit a very large capacity charger for AGM batteries. However, that could be entirely wasted with a bank of flooded batteries. Would you find a micro-wave useful? etc.
N.B. An 800W microwave might require a 1200W from generator. Cooking times are significantly extended when my microwave is powered from a Honda Eu20i so even output from a Honda isn't perfect for all devices.
Don't expect 1k or 2k though for extended use, check the specs. the Eu20i is only around 1.65kW and I think the smaller one is about 900W (I'm not bothering to quote kVA).
However, it would be worth re-considering purchasing cheap rigid solar panels. Even in area around Skye you'd get a fair bit from solar in an average year. Sailing around has a big impact on solar as sails are often in the way (not exactly a revelation) but you usually get to run the engine for an hour or two when moving around. You take a big hit when sitting at anchor and that's when solar is very useful.
I'd estimate about 22Ah/day at start and end of the season but as much as 30Ah/day mid season from a 100W panel. I'm assuming the panel is flat on deck and not shaded. Buying 2x50W panels will greatly reduce impact of shading.
You'd still get about 24-27 Ah/day in June-August allowing for some shading and that might be a reasonable chunk of your daily usage.
Choice of 1kW or 2kW generator obviously depends on how much you want to spend, how much flexibility you want and systems on your boat.
e.g. You could fit a very large capacity charger for AGM batteries. However, that could be entirely wasted with a bank of flooded batteries. Would you find a micro-wave useful? etc.
N.B. An 800W microwave might require a 1200W from generator. Cooking times are significantly extended when my microwave is powered from a Honda Eu20i so even output from a Honda isn't perfect for all devices.
Don't expect 1k or 2k though for extended use, check the specs. the Eu20i is only around 1.65kW and I think the smaller one is about 900W (I'm not bothering to quote kVA).
However, it would be worth re-considering purchasing cheap rigid solar panels. Even in area around Skye you'd get a fair bit from solar in an average year. Sailing around has a big impact on solar as sails are often in the way (not exactly a revelation) but you usually get to run the engine for an hour or two when moving around. You take a big hit when sitting at anchor and that's when solar is very useful.
I'd estimate about 22Ah/day at start and end of the season but as much as 30Ah/day mid season from a 100W panel. I'm assuming the panel is flat on deck and not shaded. Buying 2x50W panels will greatly reduce impact of shading.
You'd still get about 24-27 Ah/day in June-August allowing for some shading and that might be a reasonable chunk of your daily usage.
No Regrets
Well-Known Member
Most are not Honda engines.
Do not believe all you read....
The only Boat Genny is the Honda EU20, assuming 1.8Kw is enough. It's impassable if used and maintained correctly, which is pretty easy!
Do not believe all you read....
The only Boat Genny is the Honda EU20, assuming 1.8Kw is enough. It's impassable if used and maintained correctly, which is pretty easy!
pvb
Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting that generators such as SDMO and Stephill, which say they use Honda engines, don't actually use Honda engines?
A
angelsson
Guest
I agree re honda prices, also lots of good buys on ebay, well worth checking out, and go for the larger one.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
Things might be better now but I'd advise taking extra care with eBay Honda generators. I was looking for one a few years ago and found several people selling them new or used on a fairly regular basis (auction, not buy now). I noticed an pattern where the price would always jump close to end of auction from bidders with fairly low scores and bidding history tended to show that they only ever bid for items sold by that seller. It is a fairly common practice and it seemed likely that some Honda gen. sellers were using it regularly to bump prices.
I did find a 2nd hand one but discovered that labels with serial number were missing. Seller said that he was selling it for someone else and asked if I could return it to a different address. I didn't do that of course but it was collected promptly after I'd had a refund. No interest from Bay as transaction had been cancelled. I thought about reporting it to the police but gave seller the benefit of the doubt. His history was OK in eBay and he might possibly have thought it was legitimate.
I think that things like Honda generators a (and Brompton bikes, as another example) can be prone to eBay problems as they have high resale value. So extra care needed to avoid buying stolen kit. Obviously they aren't all dodgy but I'd expect a higher proportion than with other eBay items, unless things have changed in past couple of years.
UPDATE: I had a quick look a eBay and situation looks better than last time I checked. No many "dealers" selling new for auction and some used models look reasonable. Perhaps I was unlucky or perhaps it's more seasonal and peaks just before sailing/caravan season starts.
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Storyline
Well-Known Member
I know the op said neither wind or solar was a reliable source of power in Scotland however I would also suggest considering a wind generator. It depends on what your perceived use would be. For general life on board, a combination of wind & solar is adequate. At the moment we do not have solar but live quite happily when cruising with just a wind generator. It may be that you have specific power hungry applications in which case the generator would be unbeatable by even a combination of wind & solar.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
I didn't mention a wind gen. as they are not as cost effective as solar panels. I'd only expect something like a Rutland 913 mounted around 3m above sea-level to average around 10Ah/day over the whole season. It might produce 100Ah/day if it blows 24 hours at 25-30knts. However, I always found that the average was close to 10Ah/day over the season. Lots of sheltered anchorages on the West coast of Scotland so no reason not to anchor in a sheltered spot almost every night.
I have 145W solar and a Rutland 913 wind-gen. plus a Honda EU20i. I don't need the Honda very much but it is useful for long cloudy spells without wind. Fortunately, not too many of those in Galicia during the summer. I'd give up the wind. gen. if I had to make a choice. The bulk of my power at anchor comes from the solar panels (just laid flat under the boom, so far from ideal).
I'd be interested if you have had significantly higher output from your Rutland. Perhaps mine is badly sited? I can dig out daily output from the wind gen. over past few years to check but am pretty certain that 10Ah/day I mentioned was correct.
Sorry about any thread drift, I'll try to get back on track but interested that my 913s output might be much lower than others with similar setup.
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Storyline
Well-Known Member
I would guess your figures for the wind generation are similar to ours (also a 913). I do not have a way of accurately measuring amps in/out and the controller which does give a running figure of the output is situated in the battery compartment so I only look at occasionally when it is windy so i get the pleasure of seeing all those free amps. I have found that for our style of cruising that it more or less keeps up with our consumption which is fairly modest (fridge but no heating). I guess we motor for an hour or two a day and maybe once every 5 days or so hook up to mains power. Sometimes this is overnight but more usually a provision stop when I have an hour or two with the battery charger.
Most nights are spent at anchor, probably two nights in each anchorage and the only time when we have to run the engine is if we are gale bound for more than 2-3 nights and then I just run it for an hour.
I know the efficiency of solar has improved recently and our wind controller can take the output from a solar panel so it is on the wish list, certainly higher up than a generator.
I think a key advantage of the wind generator is that the batteries are always kept full when we are not on the boat.
Most nights are spent at anchor, probably two nights in each anchorage and the only time when we have to run the engine is if we are gale bound for more than 2-3 nights and then I just run it for an hour.
I know the efficiency of solar has improved recently and our wind controller can take the output from a solar panel so it is on the wish list, certainly higher up than a generator.
I think a key advantage of the wind generator is that the batteries are always kept full when we are not on the boat.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
OK, many thanks. I avoid running the engine to charge batteries and only do it 1-2 times per year (mainly for a hot shower, with charging as a bonus). I try for 2 weeks between marina stops for water, so probably not on shore power quite as much as you. I live on the boat for just over 6 months each year so power usage is pretty high most days.
I'd place solar as a higher priority than wind gen. A 50W panel would just about match the Rutland's average in mid-summer and they are pretty cheap.
OP asked about generators so I assume he is more interested in re-charging on a cruise than when not staying on the boat. Solar is a good investment but OP will probably still end up running his engine a lot at anchor (unless he fits about 200W panels or is frugal with battery power). So a suitcase generator is a good idea for NW Scotland or any extended cruises away from shore power.
1kw: Perfect, light and easy to move around but only really able to be used to power a mains charger (say 40-60A). Obviously, it can be used for other things (small hair tongs, toaster etc.) but they tend to fall into the less useful category (your wife might disagree).
2kw: Much more flexible and still quite light. Not very noisy when running a 40A charger (with output ~30-40A) as it isn't anywhere near max. speed. Other things can be run as well microwave, hair drier, water heater, toaster. Pretty much any single appliance apart from a large kettle or big electric fire. I limit total to 1.6kW and don't exploit the 2kW output as that is only available for short periods.
Buy the one meeting your needs & budget. I don't use it to heat water very often (only when desperate for a hot shower) as waste engine heat is a much better option (so sync. showers with engine days or use solar showers).
I'm still very pleased with my Honda Eu20i but can go for weeks without running it. It's almost inaudible from cockpit or saloon when on fore deck but I usually just run it in the cockpit as it isn't all that intrusive. Still a relief to turn it off and I avoid running it early or late in the day or when others anchored nearby. The only exceptions are for hair drier (not used often as we have smaller hair thingies running off inverter) or odd use of microwave but these are only for 10-15 minutes and I am just obeying orders.
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Storyline
Well-Known Member
Thanks for lots of useful further info. You obviously spend more time on your boat than we do so I can see how important battery/power management is. I do fancy a generator but as we have no heater and sail in Scotland that is going to get priority (then I will probably need increased power generation !).
William_H
Well-Known Member
I hope this is not thread drift but a few comments about posters comments.
However firstly the OP might consider fitting a 240VAc alternator to his main engine via belt or shaft drive. Huge amounts of AC power can be got with no concerns about carrying petrol etc. Plus any engine running can also get your calorifier working. As said with portable generators check the wave form delivered and it's suitablity for electronics. Pure Sine wave is safest.
Back in my day a 50 hertz 240v generator had an engine runninga t 1500 or 3000 RPM direcrly driving an alternator which produced 240v at 50 hertz. To keep the frequency right the engine had to run at its correct speed regardless of load. A governor gave the engine more fuel and air if the load came on. Hopefully the speed stayed the same. So noisy especially with small loads. This gave pure sine wave AC.
Electronics became cheaper and it became practical and cheap to generate power at a high and variable frequency at 3 phases in something like a car alternator. This is rectified to DC then applied to an inverter to provide the AC at 50 hertz. This means the engine can jog along at low speed for low loads and crank up to high speed for high power. So the engine runs at optimum (quietest) speed for the power needed.
The problem is just like an inverter running off your battery it is cheap and effcient to generate an AC which is closer to square wave shape than sine wave. There are often attempts to get some compromise they call modified square wave. Pure sine wave is more expensive /difficult to generate. Any old wave shape is OK for lights or heating devices or brush type motors but synchronous motors as in fridges and fans don't like anything but sine wave. Elecronics (battery chargers included) react in various ways from OK to smoke. So you need to know what you need and what you are getting.
Regarding paralleling AC supplies. Safest is don't. To explain with Dc batteries for more power(current) you parallel 2x 12v batteries A wire goes from +ve of one to +ve to the other and another wire from -ve one to -ve the other. Right simple. What happens if you get the polarity wrong on one battery. They are effectively in series to make 24v with a wire shorting out the 24v battery. Smoke and flames and wrecked batteries.
OK with AC you are trying to paralllel two sources of voltage. Both alternating at about 50 times per second from +ve to -ve. But not at exactly the same rate. So you might get both going positive at the same time or you might get one +ve and one -ve at contact time with similar results to above. You need an electrronic switch which can detect instantaneously when the voltages are identical and only make the connection when they are. Once connected together alternators as in rotating fields at 50 cycles per second will tend to work together well. If one tries to speed up or get out of phase the added load will slow it down till the other takes the load.
An analogy might be 2 children on side by side swings. You want to attach a steel bar between them so they are both swing in pahase together. No problem when they are stationaary but to attach the connection while both are swinging you must get them both in pahse. Once connected if one swings harder than the other they will both swing together so any discrepancy in power does not matter so much.
However with an inverter or a generator with an inverter type supply the timing of the AC comes from a low level oscilator.(the crystal of the processor) The power circuits have no control over the frequency so any discrepancy remains a discrepancy and potential added load or short circuit between suplies. You must disable the timer of one supply and slave it to the timer of the other supply.
Hence it really is safest simplest to keep supplies of AC totally isolated from mains and one another.
All waffle perhaps but it may explain something good luck olewill
However firstly the OP might consider fitting a 240VAc alternator to his main engine via belt or shaft drive. Huge amounts of AC power can be got with no concerns about carrying petrol etc. Plus any engine running can also get your calorifier working. As said with portable generators check the wave form delivered and it's suitablity for electronics. Pure Sine wave is safest.
Back in my day a 50 hertz 240v generator had an engine runninga t 1500 or 3000 RPM direcrly driving an alternator which produced 240v at 50 hertz. To keep the frequency right the engine had to run at its correct speed regardless of load. A governor gave the engine more fuel and air if the load came on. Hopefully the speed stayed the same. So noisy especially with small loads. This gave pure sine wave AC.
Electronics became cheaper and it became practical and cheap to generate power at a high and variable frequency at 3 phases in something like a car alternator. This is rectified to DC then applied to an inverter to provide the AC at 50 hertz. This means the engine can jog along at low speed for low loads and crank up to high speed for high power. So the engine runs at optimum (quietest) speed for the power needed.
The problem is just like an inverter running off your battery it is cheap and effcient to generate an AC which is closer to square wave shape than sine wave. There are often attempts to get some compromise they call modified square wave. Pure sine wave is more expensive /difficult to generate. Any old wave shape is OK for lights or heating devices or brush type motors but synchronous motors as in fridges and fans don't like anything but sine wave. Elecronics (battery chargers included) react in various ways from OK to smoke. So you need to know what you need and what you are getting.
Regarding paralleling AC supplies. Safest is don't. To explain with Dc batteries for more power(current) you parallel 2x 12v batteries A wire goes from +ve of one to +ve to the other and another wire from -ve one to -ve the other. Right simple. What happens if you get the polarity wrong on one battery. They are effectively in series to make 24v with a wire shorting out the 24v battery. Smoke and flames and wrecked batteries.
OK with AC you are trying to paralllel two sources of voltage. Both alternating at about 50 times per second from +ve to -ve. But not at exactly the same rate. So you might get both going positive at the same time or you might get one +ve and one -ve at contact time with similar results to above. You need an electrronic switch which can detect instantaneously when the voltages are identical and only make the connection when they are. Once connected together alternators as in rotating fields at 50 cycles per second will tend to work together well. If one tries to speed up or get out of phase the added load will slow it down till the other takes the load.
An analogy might be 2 children on side by side swings. You want to attach a steel bar between them so they are both swing in pahase together. No problem when they are stationaary but to attach the connection while both are swinging you must get them both in pahse. Once connected if one swings harder than the other they will both swing together so any discrepancy in power does not matter so much.
However with an inverter or a generator with an inverter type supply the timing of the AC comes from a low level oscilator.(the crystal of the processor) The power circuits have no control over the frequency so any discrepancy remains a discrepancy and potential added load or short circuit between suplies. You must disable the timer of one supply and slave it to the timer of the other supply.
Hence it really is safest simplest to keep supplies of AC totally isolated from mains and one another.
All waffle perhaps but it may explain something good luck olewill
dilly
Well-Known Member
i have looked and the honda can run on gas and comes with a kit, thats got to be good news if you run out of petrol. http://www.justgenerators.co.uk/pages/HondaEU20i.htm
harstonwood
Well-Known Member
Anyone tried the Hyundai 2.0?
Price looks good
Price looks good
Storyline
Well-Known Member
I notice that the Honda comes with a 5 year warranty which must be worth taking into account.
cliff
Well-Known Member
Until you try claiming against it when you find out just what it is worth. FFS it is a no brainer - 3 kipor units for the price of one honda. So far I have over 8 years abusing my Kipor 3000Ti and it has never missed a beat, so say I get another couple of years out of it- what does it matter if it pack up - just go buy another one - still cheaper than a honda - even if they did make one a 3kva. - Sorry I am not into paying a premium for a name.
A
angelsson
Guest
I checked ebay before I posted and got the same impression as you, maybe you were unlucky. I have bought and sold on ebay and find it a very good market place, use it often, no complaints. Bidding is a gamble, I try to stick to my max I wish to pay and bid it 10 secs before the end of the auction. There is an ebay guide to it worth reading.