Which Electronics system to choose?

[machone]

A nice position to be in but, which should I go for? I'm after a complete system for my heavy, old, slow cruising yacht - sounder/fishfinder, log, wind indicator, autopilot, radar, plotter, ais.

I like the Raymarine packages but they are missing the 3G/4G radars which seem to be fantastic so..... which of the 3G/4G electronics systems to go for(Simrad, Lowrance, B&G)?


A B&G Zeus based system has the possibility of weather overlays but is a lot more expensive than the lowrance/simrad for the same autopilot and other hardware. The triton repeaters seem good but could also be used with a Lowrance or Simrad system. Can you plug in a Lowrance plotter to a laptop and put weather overlays on that way? Is the B&G system worth the extra money?

I'm aware it is the part of my renovation that will go out of date quickest and it is also one of the more expensive bits.

Advice welcome

Thanks

 

[Norman_E]

Whilst I don't have or need radar, if you are going to put in an NMEA 2000 instrument system you need the transducers as well as the displays. Probably the cheapest way to start is to buy a complete starter kit with the cables (which are pretty expensive on their own) plus the through hull speed and depth transducer and the wind transducer. The hull transducer will be an Airmar one, whatever make of kit you buy, but the masthead unit will be specific to the instrument make, although its NMEA 2000 output will work with any. I bought the B&G starter kit, but in some ways the Garmin one is better because its mast head cable has a user installable plug on one end. allowing easier installation. Garmin also include a lightning suppressor. In addition the Garmin mast head unit has a barometric pressure sensor, which the B & G one does not. With that sensor the instruments can display current pressure and can show a barograph display giving you a very useful graphical warning if pressure is falling fast. The Garmin starter set of transducers, cables and one instrument is cheaper than the similar B&G Triton set. If I was buying again I would chose Triton displays at each helm and have a Garmin GMi 10 because the latter gives you a close hauled or running magnified wind display, something that the Tritons lack. If you can wait till they appear Garmin has just announced the GM1 20 with a bigger screen, which should be in the shops in a few months, and may well have a starter set offer. After final installation and sail testing of my new NMEA 2000 network which uses several different makes of equipment I intend to write an article for PBO.

 

[machone]

Thanks Norman, I look forward to the article. I didn't know about the pressure transducer. Can the barometric readout be displayed on the B&G or Lowrance? I'm finding it difficult to work out which bits are compatible with each other and which are not. I've been put off the Garmin a after using and being disappointed with a GPSMAP531

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Thanks Norman, I look forward to the article. I didn't know about the pressure transducer. Can the barometric readout be displayed on the B&G or Lowrance? I'm finding it difficult to work out which bits are compatible with each other and which are not. I've been put off the Garmin a after using and being disappointed with a GPSMAP531

How about something like this for the masthead? http://www.airmartechnology.com/2009/products/marine-product.asp?prodid=200&manf=All. In theory an NMEA2000 compatible display should be able to show any valid sentence that is sent to it but it doesn't work like that in practice unfortunately. People like Maretron do very customisable displays and even software for PC, iOS or Android which will show pretty much anything but the Lowrance does show a hell of a lot. If you have a look at the installation manuals on line it will tell exactly which sentences a device can transmit or receive. Being able to receive it isn't necessarily the same as being able to display it however - it is possible that you won't be able to set up a display to show both radar and engine temperature at the same time or something like that. The latest screens are incredibly flexible but the very fact that they are so customisable does mean it can take a while to set them up (either that or I and a few of my friends are total numpties, which is equally likely).

 

[TradewindSailor]

I have a Simrad AP 24 autopilot and an Simrad IS20 analogue display for the wind (lcd info at the bottom of the unit). I think the wind transducer, although supplied by Simrad is an Airmar unit .... it sends Simnet ... NMEA info, as does the log and depth transducers.

The only failing with this set-up is that I can't find any way to set up the depth datum .... which by default is at the depth of the transducer.

The Simrad AP24 and IS20 have been mounted in the cockpit for over 4 years and have been trouble free ..... which is more than I can say for the Raymarine C70.

 

[ukmctc]

I have just fitted Garmin, fantastic, no wires, just plug and play. Beats all other systems hands down and can be fitted by anyone.
all instruments talk to each other, displays are easy to understand, Im looking forward to getting the radar soon, again no wiring problems, just plug in.

 

[testmonkey]

Now that navico is repositioning their products the obvious choice is B&G which 2013 onwards will extend from premium to value-oriented budgets.

even when not racing, having layline and advanced wind information on the plotter display can help making that tack in optimal position.

http://www.panbo.com/archives/2013/03/bg_in_las_palmas_products_for_all_sailors_.html

 

[machone]

I like the look of that weather station grumpy but have you seen the price? I would have to make sure 100% compatible before shovelling out that for a transducer. No moving parts though. I havn't found any reviews and compatibility advice.

I've heard the B&G recommendation from a couple of suppliers for the marketing strategy reasons but something about adjusting to a marketing strategy makes me feel uneasy, especially as the screens are small and as reported in yachting world, the casing falls apart! I do like the software but it is just a software difference, isn't it? I have been told the physical bits are the same with different labels, apart from the plotters. One or two other suppliers have suggested the lowrance for the same marketing reasons but are they just behind the times? Anybody used all three systems and have 'living with' experience?

 

[Leonidas]

Might be more advantageous to install equipmernt that is fully compatible with each other and can connect without too much hassle. Have you considered the Furuno range?? I had some of it (gps,navtex,gmdss vhf) installed some years back. Never had any trouble. I wish I had the same for the rest. Bulletproof !

 

[FullCircle]

I am just installing my complete new system now.

I am happy with the current generation technology now, so see no need to go any better. The 3G/4G radars whilst having many plus points also have weak spots against 'normal' radars.

I bought the following:

C90W Raymarine plotter £1050
P70R Raymarine Autopilot head £365
SPX10 Course computer (refurb with warranty) £545
Type 1 Raymarine Linear Autopilot RAM (older, but was a spare, so very few hours on it) £250
RD418HD Raymarine Colour HD Radar.
B&G Triton Tri Cruising (wind/depth/log)pack £998
Extra B&G Triton instrument head £325
Blue Seas 12 way Fuse box £35
Raymarine SeatalkNG Cables - you need to work out your cable network and run lengths carefully, but I do not recommend buying the starter kit. You will end up with tons of the 20m cable spare, wrapped in a loop. Over £300.
Devicenet and SPX to SeatalkNG cables around £50

I also have from previous installation:
E85055 Seatalk to NMEA
NMEA0183 Comar AIS
Navman 3100 NMEA0183 Repeater Head
Standard Horizon GX3000E VHF
Actisense NMEA to USB multiplexer.
Navtex Engine

I might even get to switch it all on next weekend.

 

[Norman_E]

Thanks Norman, I look forward to the article. I didn't know about the pressure transducer. Can the barometric readout be displayed on the B&G or Lowrance? I'm finding it difficult to work out which bits are compatible with each other and which are not. I've been put off the Garmin a after using and being disappointed with a GPSMAP531

I don't know if the B&G Triton can display the barometer & barograph, because the screens for that are in the Garmin GMi 10, but not, as far as I can see in the Triton, though it may be possible that they are there and will show up if the right sensor is connected, or can be made as custom screens. Do not however be put off the GMi 10 by poor experience with other Garmin products. The GMi 10 is well sorted, though it operates differently from the B&G Triton. The latter will scroll though any pages you add to its scrolling list, and will display any page you have in it sequentially by pressing the page button. In the GMi 10 you set the instrument type in setup, and it then displays any page you have included for that instrument type, for example as a wind instrument I have about 4 different pages including the full 360 degree wind display, mimicking an analogue instrument, plus the magnified display which changes automatically from close hauled to running according to your point of sail (how neat is that!) and other pages with numerical wind speed and angle. To change it to show log/depth data, you go to the menu and choose setup, and hit "change instrument type" to select the type you want. Its a bit more long winded, but if you have it as a second instrument, like me, you will probably just leave it set on one type. With the GMi 20 about to launch there might be some cheap GMi 10 deals before long.

What I really wish is that someone would market a reasonably priced NMEA2000 barometric pressure and air temperature sensor (effectively the same thing that's in the Garmin mast head unit, but without the wind data).

 

[machone]

I suppose it's a bit like asking 'which boat do you like best'? I'll have to make some lists! My main concern is getting the right magic box and plotter as these seem to form the basis of most systems and are the most expensive component. The under deck autopilots seem to all be reliable and very similar, if not the same?

I do like the B&G plotter/software from looking at it at shows but the screen size for the money is small. The purchase cost is high and if you just get grib overlays with layline/tack calculation wouldn't I be better with a 500gbp cheaper plotter with larger screen and plug it into a laptop/ipad with the right software?

After the above recommendations I'll have a closer look at the GMi10, thanks.

What are the disadvantages of a 3G/4G radar? As far as I can work out they use less power, have as good or better definition and do not push out human unfriendly 'waves'?! The shorter range isn't a concern for even the combined speed of a ship and me, or to avoid windfarms in the North Sea which is what I plan to use it for.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I like the look of that weather station grumpy but have you seen the price? I would have to make sure 100% compatible before shovelling out that for a transducer. No moving parts though. I havn't found any reviews and compatibility advice.

I've heard the B&G recommendation from a couple of suppliers for the marketing strategy reasons but something about adjusting to a marketing strategy makes me feel uneasy, especially as the screens are small and as reported in yachting world, the casing falls apart! I do like the software but it is just a software difference, isn't it? I have been told the physical bits are the same with different labels, apart from the plotters. One or two other suppliers have suggested the lowrance for the same marketing reasons but are they just behind the times? Anybody used all three systems and have 'living with' experience?

I'm good at spending other people's money It's the no moving bits at the masthead I like too - as well as the fact that it picks up yaw, pitch and roll at the mast head and corrects for it. I agree with about the marketing strategy thing. If your buying now I can't that that a future change is relevant unless they are going to drop support which is very unlikely.

Speaking seriously about money it's really a head against heart thing. What you actually need and will regularly use is a lot less and a lot cheaper than what you probably want. The real place spending benefits to my mind is actually behind the scenes in things like high quality rate gyros which can make a huge difference to radar/marpa and to the autopilot or in getting the displays exactly where you want them (spending money on the pedestal and nav pods or on a way of viewing and operating while at the helm.

Panbo is the best place for reviews - www.panbo.com. I'd be amazed if they haven't done one of the Airmar transducer.

 

[ukmctc]

I don't know if the B&G Triton can display the barometer & barograph, because the screens for that are in the Garmin GMi 10, but not, as far as I can see in the Triton, though it may be possible that they are there and will show up if the right sensor is connected, or can be made as custom screens. Do not however be put off the GMi 10 by poor experience with other Garmin products. The GMi 10 is well sorted, though it operates differently from the B&G Triton. The latter will scroll though any pages you add to its scrolling list, and will display any page you have in it sequentially by pressing the page button. In the GMi 10 you set the instrument type in setup, and it then displays any page you have included for that instrument type, for example as a wind instrument I have about 4 different pages including the full 360 degree wind display, mimicking an analogue instrument, plus the magnified display which changes automatically from close hauled to running according to your point of sail (how neat is that!) and other pages with numerical wind speed and angle. To change it to show log/depth data, you go to the menu and choose setup, and hit "change instrument type" to select the type you want. Its a bit more long winded, but if you have it as a second instrument, like me, you will probably just leave it set on one type. With the GMi 20 about to launch there might be some cheap GMi 10 deals before long.

What I really wish is that someone would market a reasonably priced NMEA2000 barometric pressure and air temperature sensor (effectively the same thing that's in the Garmin mast head unit, but without the wind data).

marinesuperstore are knocking out GMI10's at £195, under half price. I have just fitted 4x GMI10's, GWS kit (wind, depth, log, air temp, water temp, barometer), chart plotter 5012, DSC 200i, control mic, £2859. its all plug n play, new radar and 2nd chart plotter will cost me £1800.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Often pondered what I would do if in your position and have only come to six conclusions:

1/ I would avoid buying all one manufacturers system - I wouldnt want to find that one bit goes down and cant be replaced from the same manufacturer ( maybe gone bust like Raymarine did?) giving comms problems
2/ I wouldnt bother with a log unless racing. Most seasons I dont bother to put my log is - forever cleaning it if I do. So I've proved to my own satisfaction that it isnt really needed.
3/ I would base my system round NMEA 2000 and try to get it talking via blue tooth or similar
4/ no argument - I would go for another under deck autopilot using the simrad hydraulic ram. Its bulletproof but expensive.
5/ I would chose an expensive serviceable mast head annenometer. The cheap and nasty NASA type ones have a limited life whereas the expensive ones can usually be serviced to replace things like bearings and seals.
6/ I would not have combined radar and plotter - redundancy issues.

I should add a PS. I would not buy Garmin given how they have treated cdustomers for their old models before now. There may be an element of bias in this - Garmin to me are the marine equivalent of Apple and Microshaft and Google, all rapacious immoral american firms wanting world domination.

 

[testmonkey]

How about something like this for the masthead? http://www.airmartechnology.com/2009/products/marine-product.asp?prodid=200&manf=All

great product for power boats. There is a reason why ultrasonic wind transducers are not used in grand prix sailboats, even when cost is not an issue. Ultrasonic wind wane technology is simply not accurate enough. Whether that matters to average cruiser might be a different story. Here's another unit http://www.seashop.eu/weather-instruments/70-rowind-plus.html

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Ultrasonic wind wane technology is simply not accurate enough.

Interesting comment and you may well be right. But I cant see why that should be the case - do you have any numbers or source data?

 

[testmonkey]

If ultrasonic was the best, it would be used in Americas Cup, Volvo Ocean Race etc. But it's not. Accuracy, weight, and details like this: one example product has wind speed accuracy in wet conditions: 5 knots (5.7 MPH) RMS.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

If ultrasonic was the best, it would be used in Americas Cup, Volvo Ocean Race etc. .

you'll have difficulty with that argument on here. I've been tring to persuade them that modern hull designs lightweight and broad beamed are far better than the old wine glass long keeled jobbies on the basis of the race argument and they dont want to know.

in any case I wonder what the accuracy of a conventional anenometer is

 

[Norman_E]

marinesuperstore are knocking out GMI10's at £195, under half price. I have just fitted 4x GMI10's, GWS kit (wind, depth, log, air temp, water temp, barometer), chart plotter 5012, DSC 200i, control mic, £2859. its all plug n play, new radar and 2nd chart plotter will cost me £1800.

£195? I just looked on the Marine Superstore website and saw them at £359. https://www.marinesuperstore.com/posit/shop/index.php?category=7&group=17 They would certainly be one hell of a bargain at £195. I did get one, secondhand but unused off ebay for £180, but paid £345 for the other.