Which anchor for Croatia?

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'm putting this on here as I think you guys have more experience of Croatian cruising than the Mobo forum. I've currently got a 30kg Bruce (genuine not copy) with about 100m of chain on my 53ft mobo. Now I know that you liveaboard types would consider this anchor undersized for a 53 footer but its actually heavier than most mobo builders would fit as standard to this size of boat. The problem is that I often can't get the Bruce to set even in recognised anchorages. It doesn't seem to be able to cut through weed or dig into the stony seabed often found in Croatia. The only occasions when I've been able to set the anchor properly is in mud.
I'm thinking about changing the anchor itself now. In the past I've had good experience with Deltas but that was in the W Med where the seabed is mostly sand. I've looked around marinas and there doesn't seem to be a majority of one particular type of anchor with boats being fitted with a mix of Deltas, CQRs, Bruces, Rocnas and fisherman's type anchors. The other problem I have is that whatever anchor I buy must fit into my existing (closed) bow roller so anything with a much deeper shank than my existing Bruce wouldn't fit.
Anybody got any recommendations?

 

[blueglass]

I shall also read responses with interest - also have mobo on a bruce with similar issues in Greek anchorages. All I would say is that once I get the bruce in it holds extremely well when others around me are dragging all over the place.

 

[Tranona]

Think you are going to have to consider one of the new style anchors such as the Manson, Rocna, Bugle or Spade. The general reports are that these all dig in quicker and better - particularly through weed. However they are mostly very expensive and you will probably have difficulty in fitting in your roller.

I switched from a CQR which is like the Bruce excellent in mud or other sticky bottoms for a Delta which was much better (in the Ionian) and is probably now the most common single type in that area, although not dominant.

 

[vyv_cox]

I changed from a Delta, which I had been very happy with for 15 years, when it dragged in very strong winds and a soft mud bottom. I bought a Rocna, before the recent revelations about its materials of construction rendered it dubious. I find it to be an all-round improvement, which I imagine would be the case with Spade and Manson Supreme. The Bugel is not quite in the same category as these three, has a smaller area/weight, but is often seen in the Med, with good reports.

 

[Jeva]

I've been using a Bruce on my boat (45ft) for about 5 years all through Croatia and Greece with no problems at all but it is much bigger anchor (45Kg).
For what it's worth a fellow cruiser on a similar boat but with much more experience than I have, pointed out that in most cases the anchor is the last resort and the boat should be lying to the weight of the anchor chain. With a big boat if you 'pull in' your anchor, you're just as likely to pull it out again!.
Best solution - big anchor with big chain and lots of it.

 

[vyv_cox]

For what it's worth a fellow cruiser on a similar boat but with much more experience than I have, pointed out that in most cases the anchor is the last resort and the boat should be lying to the weight of the anchor chain.

I successfully disproved this often-read theory. My anchor connector failed due to stress-corrosion cracking when we were anchored in a force 3, no waves. We immediately dragged sternwards, pulling the chain with us. We were in about 3 - 4 metres of water with about 20 metres of chain out.

 

[Mark-1]

For what it's worth a fellow cruiser on a similar boat but with much more experience than I have, pointed out that in most cases the anchor is the last resort and the boat should be lying to the weight of the anchor chain.

That's been my experience. It seems pretty typical that the chain near the anchor doesn't get pulled out into a straight line during even a fairly windy night. Even if the bottom's not visible recovering the chain often seems to involve a magical mystery tour as I follow it - great big S shapes demonstrating that the chain never got pulled into a straight line.

This held us for a lunchtime with enough wind to put a 45 degree angle on the chain: http://fattie.freehostia.com/Ionian2009/images/xxxanchor.jpg

It wasn't windy but I just chucked this one back down and it held us overnight: http://fattie.freehostia.com/IonianImages2008/images/1pickup.jpg

Again there wasn't much wind but you can see there's been no weight on the chain near the anchor at all: http://fattie.freehostia.com/IonianImages2008/images/1anchor.jpg

Two of the above shots are taken in warm water and light or possibly non-existent winds but on the West Coast of Scotland which is a favourite cruising area of mine the water is often clear enough to see that there's been no weight borne by the anchor at all during the night.

One one occasion moored stern to with 60m of chain out we tried to winch the boat closer to the shore with a line to a tree. When we gave up the rope was like an iron bar, nobody could wind another inch in and the anchor still wasn't set.

Was it Haskell Smith who spent several nights storm bound only to find some days later that the whole time his anchor had been sitting on a smooth rock which became visible as the tide went towards springs?

As a mate once said, "Half the time all the anchor does is let you know where the chain ends".

 

[BrianH]

I've been anchoring in Croatia since it was called Yugoslavia, most of the time with a CQR, with few problems - and that includes plenty of storm force boras. The only time I did drag was in the Sv Klement islands south of Hvar in a pilot book recommended anchorage but when I dived the next morning when the gale had blown itself out found the sand was only 20cm over flat rock.

Then I became persuaded by negative reports about the CQR and bought a genuine Bruce. It was awful for setting in many locations, especially with any trace of grass, although holding like a limpet when it did and I became so pi§ed off with it I started using my secondary Danforth, which both set and held well everywhere.

When I changed boats six years ago I was back with the new one's CQR, which again set well, but in 2008 bought a Rocna (NZ made), which is markedly superior in setting.

From reports in 'the other place' I wouldn't buy one again but instead the Manson Supreme, the new generation anchors are, in my opinion, clearly an improvement in speed and ease of setting.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I'm putting this on here as I think you guys have more experience of Croatian cruising than the Mobo forum. I've currently got a 30kg Bruce (genuine not copy) with about 100m of chain on my 53ft mobo. Now I know that you liveaboard types would consider this anchor undersized for a 53 footer but its actually heavier than most mobo builders would fit as standard to this size of boat. The problem is that I often can't get the Bruce to set even in recognised anchorages. It doesn't seem to be able to cut through weed or dig into the stony seabed often found in Croatia. The only occasions when I've been able to set the anchor properly is in mud.
I'm thinking about changing the anchor itself now. In the past I've had good experience with Deltas but that was in the W Med where the seabed is mostly sand. I've looked around marinas and there doesn't seem to be a majority of one particular type of anchor with boats being fitted with a mix of Deltas, CQRs, Bruces, Rocnas and fisherman's type anchors. The other problem I have is that whatever anchor I buy must fit into my existing (closed) bow roller so anything with a much deeper shank than my existing Bruce wouldn't fit.
Anybody got any recommendations?

Mike, I don't think you will fit a Manson supreme - but look at their website to check shank dimensions. Otherwise I think your best bet is the Spade which seems to fit everything, but expensive - but what price for a peaceful stress free night? I see a lot of Bugles here, and don't see them having problems.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thanks to all for replies. I do agree with those replies that suggest that in most conditions the anchor contributes little or nothing to holding the boat as simply the weight and catenary effect of the chain is sufficient to hold the boat. Having said that, because I'm a bit of anorak, I do like to snorkel out to see what my anchor is doing and after a couple of nights at anchor in the past in the W Med when the wind has piped up overnight, I have observed that my anchor has dug itself well into the seabed. I think with the extra windage of a typical mobo, the holding performance of the anchor is perhaps more crucial than a sailboat. Thats why I like to know that my anchor is well set into the seabed rather than just rely on it's weight, for my own peace of mind.
I am inclined to try one of the more modern anchors this time. I'm now wary of the Rocna after recent reports on this forum and the shank of the Manson looks too deep to fit my existing bow roller so I'm going to be taking a closer look at the Spade. But ouch they seem to be expensive! Anybody know why the Spade is so expensive; it looks to have about the same amount of material and labour in the fabrication as the Delta at half the price

 

[jordanbasset]

Thanks to all for replies. I do agree with those replies that suggest that in most conditions the anchor contributes little or nothing to holding the boat as simply the weight and catenary effect of the chain is sufficient to hold the boat. Having said that, because I'm a bit of anorak, I do like to snorkel out to see what my anchor is doing and after a couple of nights at anchor in the past in the W Med when the wind has piped up overnight, I have observed that my anchor has dug itself well into the seabed. I think with the extra windage of a typical mobo, the holding performance of the anchor is perhaps more crucial than a sailboat. Thats why I like to know that my anchor is well set into the seabed rather than just rely on it's weight, for my own peace of mind.
I am inclined to try one of the more modern anchors this time. I'm now wary of the Rocna after recent reports on this forum and the shank of the Manson looks too deep to fit my existing bow roller so I'm going to be taking a closer look at the Spade. But ouch they seem to be expensive! Anybody know why the Spade is so expensive; it looks to have about the same amount of material and labour in the fabrication as the Delta at half the price

Have a look at the Kobra 2, in tests and the real world it performs as well and better than most new generation anchors (the only anchor that performs better in tests is the Spade, which is a very good anchor) but the Price of the Kobra 2 is very reasonable

 

[vyv_cox]

Have a look at the Kobra 2, in tests and the real world it performs as well and better than most new generation anchors (the only anchor that performs better in tests is the Spade, which is a very good anchor) but the Price of the Kobra 2 is very reasonable

The Kobra 2 is very similar to the Delta, i.e. a plough type. If you pull it hard enough in a soft bottom, just like the Delta, it will plough.

It did well in one test carried out by a French magazine and reprinted in YM. Amazingly, it's a French made anchor. What a coincidence!

 

[KellysEye]

> in most cases the anchor is the last resort and the boat should be lying to the weight of the anchor chain.

>>My anchor connector failed due to stress-corrosion cracking when we were anchored in a force 3, no waves. We immediately dragged sternwards, pulling the chain with us. We were in about 3 - 4 metres of water with about 20 metres of chain out.

Actually your story proves the top quote. The shallower the water the more chain you need, 20 metres in three to four metres is not enough. We use 10x in those depths which creates a catenary and no pull on the anchor. With deeper the water the less depth/chain ratio is needed because there is a large and very heavy catenary before the chain touches bottom.

 

[vyv_cox]

> in most cases the anchor is the last resort and the boat should be lying to the weight of the anchor chain.

>>My anchor connector failed due to stress-corrosion cracking when we were anchored in a force 3, no waves. We immediately dragged sternwards, pulling the chain with us. We were in about 3 - 4 metres of water with about 20 metres of chain out.

Actually your story proves the top quote. The shallower the water the more chain you need, 20 metres in three to four metres is not enough. We use 10x in those depths which creates a catenary and no pull on the anchor. With deeper the water the less depth/chain ratio is needed because there is a large and very heavy catenary before the chain touches bottom.

The figures are all approximations or guesses. Depth might have been 3 or 4, chain length might have been 25, I don't remember. Very few people would consider a ratio of more than 5:1 to be insufficient in a crowded anchorage in a force 3.

What I can most definitely tell you is that I anchored for days on end in Cala Lupe in 2 - 2.5 metres with 35+ metres of chain out, wind speed 30 knots plus for the whole time. I swam on the anchor many times and watched the chain becoming bar tight, not a single link of it on the bottom.

I invite you to anchor wherever you like with chain only, in reasonable wind speeds, and report back.

 

[Swagman]

The Kobra 2 is very similar to the Delta, i.e. a plough type. If you pull it hard enough in a soft bottom, just like the Delta, it will plough.

It did well in one test carried out by a French magazine and reprinted in YM. Amazingly, it's a French made anchor. What a coincidence!

Strange how we all have differing experiences.......we went with a Delta on our last boat and found it superb. Both in the harder or weedier bottoms we typically found in Croatia, and also in the muddier or sandier bottoms we found elsewhere.

In fact in pure mud (quite soft) in Turkey we sat out a 65 mph max gust summer storm hanging to it. As Kellys Eye says, anything will pull out if the scope is too short. IMHO anything will plough if the load on with medium scope. But our Delta definately dug deeper when we used extra scope. I know as it took me 2 hours to get it back up after that blow.

Cheers
JOHN

 

[KellysEye]

>The figures are all approximations or guesses. Depth might have been 3 or 4, chain length might have been 25, I don't remember.

I am surprised you can't remember the details of what must have been an unpleasant experience.

>I invite you to anchor wherever you like with chain only, in reasonable wind speeds, and report back.

If I didn't have an anchor I would put down even more chain. I view chain as the first line of defence and the anchor as the back up, not something to hang off.

 

[Salty John]

Oh dear, and this was becoming that most rare of things, a non-acrimonious anchor thread.

 

[Mark-1]

Oh dear, and this was becoming that most rare of things, a non-acrimonious anchor thread.

Fantastic Catroon SJ, thanks for posting it.

However, I notice you've drawn a CQR. I think you'll find the Bruce is a far better anchor for humourous anchor sketches.

 

[jordanbasset]

The Kobra 2 is very similar to the Delta, i.e. a plough type. If you pull it hard enough in a soft bottom, just like the Delta, it will plough.

It did well in one test carried out by a French magazine and reprinted in YM. Amazingly, it's a French made anchor. What a coincidence!

Please see attached link,
http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/SitePages/Sup_indept_test.htm
it shows that in three of the most recent tests that the Kobra 2 was involved in it came at the top or very close to it. I do agree with you it is similar but many anchors are. I do believe the Kobra 2 is sufficiently different to make a difference, as the Yachting Monthly test makes clear from it's test

Quote from the Y.M test "Our underwater footage proves the excellence of the design – the Kobra was the second-best anchor on test – and its behaviour in use was reassuringly predictable. It never failed to set, always digging in rapidly and burying itself well. It’s assuredly the winner of this test. Taking into account the modest price tag, it’s excellent value-for-money"

The same Y.M. test also did the Delta, about which it says " Unfortunately, while it wasn’t awful, the Delta’s performance in our test didn’t completely win us over. Like the CQR, it labours the ground without digging in deeply and disappearing, like some of the other anchors we tested (the Spade, Bugel and Manson). If you already have one on board, there’s no need for a hasty upgrade –"

My own experience in anchoring from Plymouth to Malta is that the Kobra 2 has not let me down, conversations with other Kobra 2 owners have revealed similar stories.
Having said that it is up to the O.P. to decide on what he wants to spend his money, peace of mind at anchor is a priceless commodity

 

[BrianH]

The shallower the water the more chain you need, 20 metres in three to four metres is not enough. We use 10x in those depths which creates a catenary and no pull on the anchor.

You must always be alone in remote anchorages then. Most often I am sharing an anchorage where swinging room is limited. I do try to keep to 5x depth but even that sometimes causes neighbour problems.

As for chain alone taking the strain: I have often been anchored in sudden, strong, katabatic winds where clearly the anchor has been under severe load and set very deeply, making retrieval quite difficult.