Which 50 year old in-shore cruiser?

[Wansworth]

Something about 40 foot you can moor ina mud berth ,near a good pub and parking,spend hours of happy fiddling without all that sailing about at no risk.

 

[PaulGS]

Unless you are very knowledgeable is this the sort of boat that a survey might just save a lot of tears

Like insurance and crypto 'investment', a survey is essentially a bet, a bet that you can save more money than the cost of the surveyor. At my price point (under £8k) and armed with Don Casey's "Inspecting the aging sailboat" that's a bet I'm not willing to take!

 

[PaulGS]

Think about bilge keels versus fin keel - mooring location might dictate. Budget also a factor.

Sadler 26 is a great Centaur/Snapdragon alternative with better sailing performance.

Moody 27 is a nice yacht but relatively expensive.

British David Thomas Hunters 24ft to 27ft are another option although more lightly built than the very solid Snapdragon/Macwesters.

As you said, condition and the absence of expensive repairs is most important. A popular model like Centaur will have greater choice of conditions to choose from.

I'm just t'other side of the Pennines from you so looking for shoal draft. Not many to look at locally either - serious purchasing may need a tour of distant harbours and marinas.

 

[obmij]

Like insurance and crypto 'investment', a survey is essentially a bet, a bet that you can save more money than the cost of the surveyor. At my price point (under £8k) and armed with Don Casey's "Inspecting the aging sailboat" that's a bet I'm not willing to take!

The cost of a survey in the scheme of things is negligible, even for an 26ft boat. I would not describe it as a 'bet' more of an investment on which you will almost certainly get a decent return. It may also help you avoid catastrophe and wasted time.

This is just a story and I am only one person out of the many thousands who own or have owned boats - so make of it what you will. I bought a smaller boat than you are proposing to buy where a survey would have been more disproportionate to the purchase price. I was not inexperienced and had also read the equivalent of your book. I assessed the boat as being in need of work but in fairish condition. I then sailed her home over a few weekends and hauled out to complete the works. A couple of years later I sold the boat for a quid having spent a phenomenal amount of time in a boatyard, I think I had bought her for somewhere around 3 k (this was 20 years ago) but had spent much more on yard fees and purchasing new gear.

So, I had correctly identified most of the works required but hugely underestimated the time and cost to remedy them. Perhaps a surveyor would have acted as what is annoying known these days as a 'sanity check' - or a second opinion. Perhaps, a surveyor may have assisted not only with identifying issues but proposing realistic timescales and methods to remedy them. Perhaps I would have walked away - and 'wasted' his fee..

Thing is, everything is fixable and it is tempting to think that you are the person to fix it as long as the purchase price is right - however the lower the price the less one is willing to spend the money required to do so (either by contracting in 3rd party labour or buying new systems) because the cost of doing so will soon overtake the value of the finished vessel. Yard / storage fees are easy to underestimate too and add up quickly.

To finish - how much is a survey these days on a 26fter? I doubt it is more than a decent inflatable or a new outboard. If you find that cost unpalatable, you are in for a bit of a shock when you take responsibility for your new boat.


BTW - to answer your original question, I would buy a centaur in the best possible condition.

Best of luck
: - )

 

[PaulGS]

The cost of a survey in the scheme of things is negligible, even for an 26ft boat. I would not describe it as a 'bet' more of an investment on which you will almost certainly get a decent return. It may also help you avoid catastrophe and wasted time.

This is just a story and I am only one person out of the many thousands who own or have owned boats - so make of it what you will. I bought a smaller boat than you are proposing to buy where a survey would have been more disproportionate to the purchase price. I was not inexperienced and had also read the equivalent of your book. I assessed the boat as being in need of work but in fairish condition. I then sailed her home over a few weekends and hauled out to complete the works. A couple of years later I sold the boat for a quid having spent a phenomenal amount of time in a boatyard, I think I had bought her for somewhere around 3 k (this was 20 years ago) but had spent much more on yard fees and purchasing new gear.

So, I had correctly identified most of the works required but hugely underestimated the time and cost to remedy them. Perhaps a surveyor would have acted as what is annoying known these days as a 'sanity check' - or a second opinion. Perhaps, a surveyor may have assisted not only with identifying issues but proposing realistic timescales and methods to remedy them. Perhaps I would have walked away - and 'wasted' his fee..

Thing is, everything is fixable and it is tempting to think that you are the person to fix it as long as the purchase price is right - however the lower the price the less one is willing to spend the money required to do so (either by contracting in 3rd party labour or buying new systems) because the cost of doing so will soon overtake the value of the finished vessel. Yard / storage fees are easy to underestimate too and add up quickly.

To finish - how much is a survey these days on a 26fter? I doubt it is more than a decent inflatable or a new outboard. If you find that cost unpalatable, you are in for a bit of a shock when you take responsibility for your new boat.


BTW - to answer your original question, I would buy a centaur in the best possible condition.

Best of luck
: - )

This subject would probably make an colourful thread in itself. It might result in a disproportionate number of disaster anecdotes though, as 'I-bought-a-boat-without-a-survey-and-it-turned-out-more-or-less-as-I-hoped' isn't much of a tale. Yes, there's certainly a substantial risk involved in not having a survey (I've bought half-a-dozen properties at auction under a similar condition). The cost of a new-ish outboard is well worth saving though - one strategy for me might be to buy a (seemingly) sound boat with aging engine and have an outboard as safety net.

 

[Praxinoscope]

There are plenty of boats around of the sort of age you are looking at where the engines have been replaced in the last 10-20 years, as long as these engines have been maintained and looked after there should still be plenty of life left in them.
I sold my last boat in 2018 with a Beta 10 engine that I fitted back in 1998, the engine was in good condition and never gave any cause for concern, despite being 20 years old.
I agree with ‘supertramp’ go for a bilge keel, you aren’t looking for top performance and bilge offers a lot of advantages.
If you look around there will be plenty of 25/26’ that meet your requirements, but do look at them carefully, some may need extensive work, others will only need a bit of work to get them to the fashion you want. My present boat had been well maintained with several items fairly new so it didn’t need an major repars, but I did do several bits of alteration in the cabin not to repair but to modify to how I preferred it.
If you have found a boat that looks like it might be ’the one’, take a friend along who knows something about boats who can give you a rough idea of it’s condition, if they seem impressed then personally I would have a survey but that’s up to you.
If you do think about a Centaur, look for one where that awful cabin headlining has been sorted, Westerly should have hung their heads in shame using that stuff, I am biased but I think the Sadler 25 Mk2 or Sadler 26 are a better choice, but accept that the heavier Centaur may have better heavy weather characteristics, it depends a lot on the sailing you intend.

 

[Stemar]

ISTM that, for what the OP wants, the checklist isn't huge.

1 See the engine start from cold, which means the exhaust manifold is cold to the touch. Engines without heater plugs may need a bit of churning to get going on a cold day, and those with may need a bit longer on the plugs, and a bit of smoke when cold is nothing to worry about as long as it goes away when the engine warms up, and it goes into ahead and astern without nasty noises

2 The rig is under about 12 years old, and the running rigging and mooring lines are reasonable

3 The sails aren't rotten - they're unlikely to be in racing fettle, but Granny's knickers will get you along off the wind, and many of the boats under discussion aren't great to windward anyway.

4 Upholstery not too manky unless you have the necessary skills

5 The head and other plumbing works - and the cooker.

The rest is pretty straightforward. Good instruments are a bonus but you can live with old ones and new doesn't have to cost a kidney, a cockpit tent is a huge bonus, but the rest is pretty much fixable. Sure it takes time and costs money - at least twice as much of both as you expect, but if you can hit those five items, you can get out and enjoy yourself while doing the work you decide is important

 

[PaulGS]

"as long as these engines have been maintained and looked after"!!! That's the nub though - unless the seller has a fistful of service reciepts who's to know?

 

[Praxinoscope]

As soon as you open the engine compartment you get a pretty good idea, can’t download the photo’s of engine states I have seen, but a visual gives you a starting point, check thé external cleanliness of oil/fuel filters, covered in oil/grease/ muck be suspicious, Check the dip stick is the oil clean or thin and black, check cleanliness of air filter, and look for obvious signs of where water/oil may have leaked.
Even on the hard it is essential to run the engine, there are plenty of ways of providing the cooling water needed. The following simple checks/observations can be made without major marine diesel knowledge, did it start easily? Was or is there a lot of smoke from the exhaust, does it tick over properly, (small Beta engines tick over at about 900 rpm,) is the coolant water exiting the exhaust as it should, , does it rev up to max revs without hesitation, do the warning lights go out when it starts. All these checks are a good indication of engine condition. Gearbox slightly more difficult out of the water, but a brief move into fwd/rev shouldn’t be a problem.
Obviously no guarantee that the above will pick up on an engine problem, but should give a pretty good idea of its condition.

 

[Biggles Wader]

The problem with a survey on this sort of boat is what it will not tell you. It will not tell you anything about the engine/mechanicals other than it starts and does not sound like a bag of spanners. It will not tell you anything about the rig above head height or the sails. These are big money items as a proportion of boat value.

 

[PaulGS]

The problem with a survey on this sort of boat is what it will not tell you. It will not tell you anything about the engine/mechanicals other than it starts and does not sound like a bag of spanners. It will not tell you anything about the rig above head height or the sails. These are big money items as a proportion of boat value.

Agreed.

 

[PaulGS]

The cost of a survey in the scheme of things is negligible, even for an 26ft boat. I would not describe it as a 'bet' more of an investment on which you will almost certainly get a decent return. It may also help you avoid catastrophe and wasted time.

This is just a story and I am only one person out of the many thousands who own or have owned boats - so make of it what you will. I bought a smaller boat than you are proposing to buy where a survey would have been more disproportionate to the purchase price. I was not inexperienced and had also read the equivalent of your book. I assessed the boat as being in need of work but in fairish condition. I then sailed her home over a few weekends and hauled out to complete the works. A couple of years later I sold the boat for a quid having spent a phenomenal amount of time in a boatyard, I think I had bought her for somewhere around 3 k (this was 20 years ago) but had spent much more on yard fees and purchasing new gear.

So, I had correctly identified most of the works required but hugely underestimated the time and cost to remedy them. Perhaps a surveyor would have acted as what is annoying known these days as a 'sanity check' - or a second opinion. Perhaps, a surveyor may have assisted not only with identifying issues but proposing realistic timescales and methods to remedy them. Perhaps I would have walked away - and 'wasted' his fee..

Thing is, everything is fixable and it is tempting to think that you are the person to fix it as long as the purchase price is right - however the lower the price the less one is willing to spend the money required to do so (either by contracting in 3rd party labour or buying new systems) because the cost of doing so will soon overtake the value of the finished vessel. Yard / storage fees are easy to underestimate too and add up quickly.

To finish - how much is a survey these days on a 26fter? I doubt it is more than a decent inflatable or a new outboard. If you find that cost unpalatable, you are in for a bit of a shock when you take responsibility for your new boat.


BTW - to answer your original question, I would buy a centaur in the best possible condition.

Best of luck
: - )

Thanks. I'm not really convinced though. Your caution transferred to another field would put a large proportion of car drivers on public transport or bicycles. Most prefer to risk buying imperfect items and be behind the wheel. You pays your money (or not) and takes your choice.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks. I'm not really convinced though. Your caution transferred to another field would put a large proportion of car drivers on public transport or bicycles. Most prefer to risk buying imperfect items and be behind the wheel. You pays your money (or not) and takes your choice.

Depends entirely on your confidence in your own ability to assess the condition of the boat and its equipment. As your chosen boat gets bigger and more complex the more important a second experienced pair of eyes becomes. If you want to insure your £8k investment you will almost certainly need a survey anyway, so it makes sense to use your surveyor as a source of guidance. Last year I bought an old boat of the era you are looking at. I like to think I am pretty experienced and in particular very familiar with the design of boat I was buying. I did my own "survey", identified what I thought were the items that devalued the boat below the asking price and had my offer accepted. I then had an insurance survey and agreed with the surveyor that I wanted to go through the boat with a fine toothcomb and come up with a schedule of work, even though the boat had been in use during the year. He found nothing significant that I did not also find, but found lots of little bits that I had ignored in my inspection. Came away with exactly what I wanted and a basis for the first round of work to get insurance and later raise the insured value as the boat improved. Very good value for 6 hours of his time, a full report and schedule of work - £450.

Nobody expects an old £8k boat to be perfect, but it can eat money just as much as a similar size boat many times its price. The trick is to avoid owning it when the essential big bills come and having an independent assessment might help you avoid this.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

If the boat has an inboard engine , I would at least employ an experienced marine engineer for an engine survey even if out of the water. They get to know a good one from a bad one. It could mean that a boat could end up with little or no value .

 

[MisterBaxter]

I think the need for surveys is determined firstly by your own level of knowledge and experience, but secondly by your character. If you're someone who (like me) might go and see a boat, get excited about the positives and choose to look less rigourously at the negatives, a survey is a very good way to counterbalance that and keep your feet on the ground.

 

[obmij]

Thanks. I'm not really convinced though. Your caution transferred to another field would put a large proportion of car drivers on public transport or bicycles. Most prefer to risk buying imperfect items and be behind the wheel. You pays your money (or not) and takes your choice.

There's a fair bit of difference with cars, most obviously the consumer protection in place if you buy a used car from a dealer (no such system exists with used vessels). There are also 'write off' registerers, history checks and many more safeguards in place that just do not exist in the marine arena. If you do buy a lemon privately you can get it fixed pretty quickly & if the worst comes to the worst just scrap the fecker - someone will come and tow it away and will probably pay you for the privilege.

Boats are not as easily fixable. Almost everyone underestimates the time required to maintain, never mind repair or refit their pride and joy. A frequently forgotten cost is that of storage. A couple of months on the hard can easily surpass a surveyors fee - and no-one has EVER overestimated the time they will spend ashore..

Your other comparable was houses. You are comfortable making a much bigger investment without a survey. Funnily enough so am I. The cost of works are usually a far smaller proportion of the value of the asset and usually take a lot less time to complete. The is also the reassurance that even if you do make a dogs breakfast of it, the property will still retain much of its value (you just wont have added to it). With a low value sailing boat - until it is a going concern it can have a negative value. You can't even scrap it without it costing you money.

I'm not trying to catastrophise or put you off - but to me a survey is the best investment you can make even if the boat is a good one. I would say this is especially true when buying a 50 year old cruiser on a budget.

Good luck either way though.

 

[PaulGS]

There's a fair bit of difference with cars, most obviously the consumer protection in place if you buy a used car from a dealer (no such system exists with used vessels). There are also 'write off' registerers, history checks and many more safeguards in place that just do not exist in the marine arena. If you do buy a lemon privately you can get it fixed pretty quickly & if the worst comes to the worst just scrap the fecker - someone will come and tow it away and will probably pay you for the privilege.

Boats are not as easily fixable. Almost everyone underestimates the time required to maintain, never mind repair or refit their pride and joy. A frequently forgotten cost is that of storage. A couple of months on the hard can easily surpass a surveyors fee - and no-one has EVER overestimated the time they will spend ashore..

Your other comparable was houses. You are comfortable making a much bigger investment without a survey. Funnily enough so am I. The cost of works are usually a far smaller proportion of the value of the asset and usually take a lot less time to complete. The is also the reassurance that even if you do make a dogs breakfast of it, the property will still retain much of its value (you just wont have added to it). With a low value sailing boat - until it is a going concern it can have a negative value. You can't even scrap it without it costing you money.

I'm not trying to catastrophise or put you off - but to me a survey is the best investment you can make even if the boat is a good one. I would say this is especially true when buying a 50 year old cruiser on a budget.

Good luck either way though.

Some very good points made to be sure. Obviously ideally I'd like to buy a boat with a recent survey not paid for by myself. But not many boats are advertised as such.

 

[Concerto]

Some very good points made to be sure. Obviously ideally I'd like to buy a boat with a recent survey not paid for by myself. But not many boats are advertised as such.

Having a recent survey, paid by someone else, is only guidance to you. The survey does not belong to you and the surveyor has no responsibility to anyone else other than the named person on it. You cannot use this for insurance as it needs to be in your name, not any other person. Please understand sailing on a budget is not easy to someone just starting out. The advice you are being given by other forum members is sound and should be followed. I started sailing in 1965 and have helped complete some boats. Even with my experience, I still had a survey done on Concerto, and it told me nothing more than I spotted. Several points he raised I disagreed with, but the comments were more to cover him against a potential claim. The survey also excluded checks on the engine, sails, rigging, electrics, electronics, etc. All of these should be checked by a qualified person as they were beyond the area of the survey. However chatting with the surveyor can provide so much useful advice about what work that needs to be done and how critical so you can organise an order for the works to be done.

Generally renovating a boat will cost far more than you expect and takes longer that predicited. I bought Concerto knowing it needed lots of work to improve the cosmetics, replace worn items and upgrade others. This has exceeded the purchase price despite not employing any one and excluding all berthing and storage costs, etc. Click on my photo avatar to see the links in my About Me page.

 

[Tranona]

Some very good points made to be sure. Obviously ideally I'd like to buy a boat with a recent survey not paid for by myself. But not many boats are advertised as such.

Very good reasons for that. First, the survey belongs to the person who paid for it. Second if it was from a previous buyer who pulled out, there is no reason why he should pass it on. Third if it was done for the current owner then it is likely to be out of date, although he might pass it on together with a record of work done to support the price he is asking. I had sight of a 5 year old survey on the boat I bought but while it was useful to see what the boat was like then compared with when I bought it, a lot had changed and I want an assessment of the boat in its current condition. When I come to sell the boat I shall pass on the survey plus all the extensive records and accounts of the work I have carried out, but would still expect a potential buyer to have his own survey.

Really don't understand the desire to get something of value without paying for it. Even on an £8k boat a survey is "cheap" in relation to the overall size of the financial commitment you are making.

 

[PaulGS]

Having a recent survey, paid by someone else, is only guidance to you. The survey does not belong to you and the surveyor has no responsibility to anyone else other than the named person on it. You cannot use this for insurance as it needs to be in your name, not any other person. Please understand sailing on a budget is not easy to someone just starting out. The advice you are being given by other forum members is sound and should be followed. I started sailing in 1965 and have helped complete some boats. Even with my experience, I still had a survey done on Concerto, and it told me nothing more than I spotted. Several points he raised I disagreed with, but the comments were more to cover him against a potential claim. The survey also excluded checks on the engine, sails, rigging, electrics, electronics, etc. All of these should be checked by a qualified person as they were beyond the area of the survey. However chatting with the surveyor can provide so much useful advice about what work that needs to be done and how critical so you can organise an order for the works to be done.

Generally renovating a boat will cost far more than you expect and takes longer that predicited. I bought Concerto knowing it needed lots of work to improve the cosmetics, replace worn items and upgrade others. This has exceeded the purchase price despite not employing any one and excluding all berthing and storage costs, etc. Click on my photo avatar to see the links in my About Me page.

I'm 8 years old again and back at school! My fault - I let the thread wander away from its original course. And you're not to know my level of awareness of the various issues involved - your advice is well meant. But for any other contributors - please no more survey advice.