Where have HK sails gone?

[maxi77]

The pricing i see is not significantly different to uk made sails, so who are the numptys if sails can be made in china for 50% cheaper, who is getting that benefit?
When you shop for anything do you accept the cheapest quote? On a site where the is alot of comments about jobs done on the cheap, cheap cloth, cheap rope/rigging. Why not take the advice of skilled people who percieve they are charging a fair rate for their labours?
People expect to pay mechanics, plumbers, electricians, builder et al in the region of £27-£30/hr so why not skilled people in the marine trades.
Much better to pay china £1/hr and get the cheapest manufacturing on earth. it's only a shame they don't do plumbing (to British Standards).

I think you miss my point, too many 'local' businesses, not just boaty treat any one daft enough to engage them as numties, and try to rip them off. If local tradesmen treat me with respect they get my business and I will also recomend them to others. On the other hand I have not been back to the guy who 'serviced' my outboard which then took me several attempts to get running smoothly again. I have now learnt to do at least all the basic jobs on my outboards. I see no problem in payin £30 an hour, though I do get a trifle upset with the £100 an hour many garages try to extract.

The real problem lies with manufacturing especially where the product requires a lot of touch labour which places like Cina and India can provide much more cheaply than us. This is the reason many UK sailmakers get the actual manufacturing done in China. It is then very much down to how good the QC is and who takes responsibility. As I understand it the guy who runs the biggest sail manufacturing facility in China is in fact a Brit.

At the end of the day, not every thing which comes out of China is ****, just as not everything done by your local tradesman is perfect. At the end of the day we the consumer have to make a judgement and live with the consequences.

 

[spscam]

I think you miss my point, too many 'local' businesses, not just boaty treat any one daft enough to engage them as numties, and try to rip them off.

The real problem lies with manufacturing especially where the product requires a lot of touch labour which places like Cina and India can provide much more cheaply than us. This is the reason many UK sailmakers get the actual manufacturing done in China. It is then very much down to how good the QC is and who takes responsibility. As I understand it the guy who runs the biggest sail manufacturing facility in China is in fact a Brit.

And who is pushing for the cheapest product? it must be consumer driven otherwise people would pay the going rate for uk manufacturing. Admitedly there are some uk sailmakers who use china/far east and are pocketing the profits.
Yes the head of china sail factory is british what does that mean? - he is taking advantage of cheap labour and peoples desire to by the cheapest at any cost?
What happens when it does go wrong or the exchange rate makes it less viable? there will only be reps or agents. Our local Hyde sail loft is just an agency you phone the philiphines to be put through to the guys in the UK!

 

[VARNE]

Bob26,
In reply ---In Nov. 06 I paid 8% on top of quoted price, presumably import duty, direct to Fed Ex. Quoted price included air freight delivery to my door.

 

[bob26]

I think you miss my point, too many 'local' businesses, not just boaty treat any one daft enough to engage them as numties, and try to rip them off. ...

At the end of the day, not every thing which comes out of China is ****, just as not everything done by your local tradesman is perfect. At the end of the day we the consumer have to make a judgement and live with the consequences.

Backing home industries regardless can simply insulate them from competition which ulitmately does them no good (witness failure of British car car industry for instance....and rise of German and Far Eastern). Its the competition which drives up quality and value for money (compare cars of today with those produced when UK car makers dominated UK market ). Retail Price isn't the only factor in this (think BMW and VW and Volvo). If UK sailmakers want to charge premium prices they have to offer something better (be it service or quality or innovation) than you can get from Hong Kong.

 

[bob26]

Bob26,
In reply ---In Nov. 06 I paid 8% on top of quoted price, presumably import duty, direct to Fed Ex. Quoted price included air freight delivery to my door.

Thanks Lizdu. My quote included Fedex delivery as well.

Has any other HKS client had to pay import duty on their purchase?

 

[maxi77]

And who is pushing for the cheapest product? it must be consumer driven otherwise people would pay the going rate for uk manufacturing. Admitedly there are some uk sailmakers who use china/far east and are pocketing the profits.
Yes the head of china sail factory is british what does that mean? - he is taking advantage of cheap labour and peoples desire to by the cheapest at any cost?
What happens when it does go wrong or the exchange rate makes it less viable? there will only be reps or agents. Our local Hyde sail loft is just an agency you phone the philiphines to be put through to the guys in the UK!

Most people want the best value for their money, there is a balance between cost and quality and for differing users that can change. I find often budget tools (almost certainly chinese or indian) suit me fine at my level of use and expertise. I am sure if I was a tradesman I would move up the quality scale.

I do not see it as my duty to subsidise incompetance or poor quality from what ever source.

Yes after sales support is a factor to consider.

 

[spscam]

Backing home industries regardless can simply insulate them from competition which ulitmately does them no good (witness failure of British car car industry for instance....and rise of German and Far Eastern). Its the competition which drives up quality and value for money (compare cars of today with those produced when UK car makers dominated UK market ). Retail Price isn't the only factor in this (think BMW and VW and Volvo). If UK sailmakers want to charge premium prices they have to offer something better (be it service or quality or innovation) than you can get from Hong Kong.

I agree but its damn had to judge service over email? personally i take Tom Whidden advice (head honcho of north sails). "Computers only go so far, it can help with the toughest jobs (i.e. design/cutting) but in most places you are still reliant on people to sew them together and do extensive handwork.
Ultimatly the designer is no better than the persons stitching, pressing, adding reinforcing patches, cringles etc.
bad 'hands can wreck a sail. A quick way to save money is to pull someone off the street pay 5bucks an hour. Then a year later they ask for a rise - bottom line you say no and start again.
Obviously when buying sails employee satisfaction is difficult to judge, go and meet the people who are making them, if they look like they enjoy what they do then they will give a little more care and attention over your sails. . It is worth developing a relationship with your sailmaker, get to know by sight the people making them, if you see new faces every time or are kept from where the sails are made - you have reason to be suspicious. Ask questions they may have found a new better seamstress/ sailmaker Or continual turnover of employees may be symptomatic of bigger issues that can have a direct bearing on the sails you carry out of the door."
i para phrase slightly but you get the jist.

 

[bryantee]

hk sails

used lee sails last year ,fed ex delivered to india. had to pay 30% duty on total amount. main and 135% genoa plus sail cover. total $1320 inc delivery . delivered on time quoted.uk quotes were 40% more. and the duty makes a big difference.
had a previous boat that had a set of lee sails which were very good.. got 4 quotes. hk sailmakers were slightly cheaper but no firm delivery. and wanted the full amount up front. lee only a deposit.