JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Could you give us a few examples of trivial incidents which the MAIB has investigated?
Where do you keep your lifteraft (or alternative)?
- Thread starter carl170
- Start date
Could you give us a few examples of trivial incidents which the MAIB has investigated?
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
If they don't investigate all serious accidents to non-commercial leisure craft, why would you imagine that they would investigate trivial ones?
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
Where's your evidence for that statement?
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
What, that the MAIB rarely investigate non-commercial leisure accidents? I'd have thought the relative scarcity of reports would speak for itself. To get the actual numbers, I suppose a FoI request would be required to obtain the number of such incidents reported and the number actually investigated. Even without the numbers, I can assure you that the former is substantially higher than the latter.
Non-commercial leisure accidents fall outside regulation, hence are outside the remit of the MAIB. They may on occasion investigate them if there is a safety lesson to be learned, hence the existence of some reports on such accidents.
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Trident
Well-Known Member
So which is the best anchor to use from a liferaft then 
This seems to get almost as many strong opinions as the anchor threads and just as firmly entrenched - just do what you're most comfortable with.
For me, I have a cat that will float full of water and either way up. I would only use my life raft in the event of a fire - and yes I have one because the boat came with it but given the only reason to use it for me would be fire I also rewired everything with higher load cable, I fused everything properly (from the factory the boat was sadly lacking in proper fusing to protect high load cables), I added several more fire extinguishers to those on board (including plumbing a CO2 with the cone through into the engine bay so I could set it off without lifting the lid and risking a flash over) and re-plumbed my gas and added a gas and fire alarm. Given the choice for my funds I would have done all that before even thinking of a life raft to minimise risk. Then a PLB and so on.
My life raft is mounted on the pushpit in a cradle - and tore off and deployed in heavy seas round the Owers this summer - now that was a fun day! Pulling a 6 man raft with water filled stability pockets back on deck in a 7 with rough seas was probably the hardest (and most foolhardy) thing I've done all year. (also had to call the coastguard to point out that I was not in trouble in case someone called it in). I did get it re-packed and serviced afterwards and put back on board (with several cargo straps now with a knife tied to them so it won't go anywhere again unless I want it to) but that cost me £100. Had I lost it I would not have spent £600 on a new one even though we sail offshore. If you have plenty of budget and plenty of room then why not - if like most you have to prioritise your budget then I'd suggest the money is better spent on replacing the mickey mouse bilge pumps most boats come with, the poor standard wiring most come with etc
This seems to get almost as many strong opinions as the anchor threads and just as firmly entrenched - just do what you're most comfortable with.
For me, I have a cat that will float full of water and either way up. I would only use my life raft in the event of a fire - and yes I have one because the boat came with it but given the only reason to use it for me would be fire I also rewired everything with higher load cable, I fused everything properly (from the factory the boat was sadly lacking in proper fusing to protect high load cables), I added several more fire extinguishers to those on board (including plumbing a CO2 with the cone through into the engine bay so I could set it off without lifting the lid and risking a flash over) and re-plumbed my gas and added a gas and fire alarm. Given the choice for my funds I would have done all that before even thinking of a life raft to minimise risk. Then a PLB and so on.
My life raft is mounted on the pushpit in a cradle - and tore off and deployed in heavy seas round the Owers this summer - now that was a fun day! Pulling a 6 man raft with water filled stability pockets back on deck in a 7 with rough seas was probably the hardest (and most foolhardy) thing I've done all year. (also had to call the coastguard to point out that I was not in trouble in case someone called it in). I did get it re-packed and serviced afterwards and put back on board (with several cargo straps now with a knife tied to them so it won't go anywhere again unless I want it to) but that cost me £100. Had I lost it I would not have spent £600 on a new one even though we sail offshore. If you have plenty of budget and plenty of room then why not - if like most you have to prioritise your budget then I'd suggest the money is better spent on replacing the mickey mouse bilge pumps most boats come with, the poor standard wiring most come with etc
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
For anyone who wants to understand the when and why on marine accident investigaton, it's here...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1743/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1743/made
Fantasie 19
Well-Known Member
Tranona
Well-Known Member
There is no comprehensive record of incidents, nor compulsion to report (as in the US) so an FOI will not yield anything. However there is a very active press in this country and very few incidents escape some form of public exposure. In addition there are the annual reports of Coastguards and the RNLI plus reports of inquests. MAIB also report on incidents that do not result in full investigations and reports. If you review all these sources you discover that very few, if any serious incidents that result in liferaft deployment either real or potential escape scrutiny. The reports do, therefore reflect quite accurately the frequency of such incidents. Even if they were only 50% it would mean an average of 4 a year rather than the current average of 2. Some years there are none at all. These are rare random events that do not lend themselves to any statistical analysis. A qualitative analysis does however show some commonalities of underlying causes. There are also lessons to be learned from the details of individual incidents which are highlighted in those that result in a full report.
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
I know there's no requirement to report accidents of the nature in discussion. I was merely suggesting a method by which the MAIB's report/investigaton ratio for non-commercial leisure craft could be ascertained. The result would be low, and substantially lower if you included all the non-reported/reportable accidents recorded by the frontline agencies.
The bottom line is that accidents in which people die may not be investigated or reported on by the MAIB, so ones in which people survive due to the use of one piece of lifesaving equipment or another are more likely yet to go uninvestigated/reported on. Therefore, as a source of quantifying occurrences of liferaft deployment, they are useless.
As you say, if you searched every record, produced in the press and by every agency which deals with such matters, you'd be on your way to making an approximation. Even then, the entirety of the Coastguard records, for example, are monitored by the MAIB for the purpose of identifying reportable but unreported events, but not in the public domain, so a significant number of events may be absent from such private research.
I have no idea of the actual figures, precisely because they are so difficult to determine. My point is mainly to steer people away from the notion that 'If the MAIB didn't investigate it, then it didn't happen.'
The bottom line is that accidents in which people die may not be investigated or reported on by the MAIB, so ones in which people survive due to the use of one piece of lifesaving equipment or another are more likely yet to go uninvestigated/reported on. Therefore, as a source of quantifying occurrences of liferaft deployment, they are useless.
As you say, if you searched every record, produced in the press and by every agency which deals with such matters, you'd be on your way to making an approximation. Even then, the entirety of the Coastguard records, for example, are monitored by the MAIB for the purpose of identifying reportable but unreported events, but not in the public domain, so a significant number of events may be absent from such private research.
I have no idea of the actual figures, precisely because they are so difficult to determine. My point is mainly to steer people away from the notion that 'If the MAIB didn't investigate it, then it didn't happen.'
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Suggest you actually read the reports before you make such sweeping statements. The majority of the incidents reported do not in fact lead to deaths - they are investigated because there are lessons to be learned. They therefore have value in recording what happened, often from the perspective of the survivors and reporting on what worked and what did not. The reports are a good reflection of the number of incidents - not 100%, but doubt there are significant numbers of founderings and liferaft deployments involving pleasure craft that do not go reported in some way or another. As I said, even if it is half the total the numbers are still very small.
If there is an incident of this nature, it is almost certain it will have been referred to MAIB, but not necessarily result in a full investigation and report.
FWIIW an analysis of the US statistics where reporting incidents is a legal requirement shows a similar pattern of very low levels of incidents of founderings of pleasure craft that resulted in liferaft deployment.
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
Which was the sweeping statement, and why was it incorrect? I merely gave a factual example of what might or might not be investigated.
I do read the reports, the safety digest, the recommendations and most of the other publications. I do so because I work in the ocean racing sector of the marine industry and my wife works for the MAIB. Hence we have a shared interest. As a consequence, I can say with certainty that the vast majority of non-commercial leisure accidents do not feature in the MAIB's work, even though they'll be aware of pretty much all of them.
I do read the reports, the safety digest, the recommendations and most of the other publications. I do so because I work in the ocean racing sector of the marine industry and my wife works for the MAIB. Hence we have a shared interest. As a consequence, I can say with certainty that the vast majority of non-commercial leisure accidents do not feature in the MAIB's work, even though they'll be aware of pretty much all of them.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Could it be that very few pleasure craft incidents are investigated because very few pleasure craft actually have problems? Most of the RNLI's work is akin to the AA rather than an emergency service with muppets whose engine has broken down and ignore their anchor, or sailors who can't use sails. The true incidents which the MAIB care about are probably investigated a high percentage of the time.
Of course, the sense of there being few incidents is similar to the sense of a life raft being largely unnecessary compared to other better measures on a boat so this post was probably pointless. I'll end with a question though, those with life rafts, do you ever sail without your lifejacket on? Apparently a yacht can sink with no notice so surely even on a calm summers day wearing your lifejacket will be by far the most effective safety measure. My experience of looking at other boats would suggest there are plenty of boats with life rafts where life jackets are not worn even in poor weather.
Of course, the sense of there being few incidents is similar to the sense of a life raft being largely unnecessary compared to other better measures on a boat so this post was probably pointless. I'll end with a question though, those with life rafts, do you ever sail without your lifejacket on? Apparently a yacht can sink with no notice so surely even on a calm summers day wearing your lifejacket will be by far the most effective safety measure. My experience of looking at other boats would suggest there are plenty of boats with life rafts where life jackets are not worn even in poor weather.
Seajet
...
Nowadays I wear a clipped on harness ( which also happens to include a lifejacket ) whenever going on deck, and insist any crew do the same.
Might seem overkill, but on a quiet day on the mooring - which I've been on for decades - I put a foot in the wrong place in the tender and instantly found it inverted on top of me; I was quite chuffed by the auto Krew LJ inflating, even if it did cost me nearly half the purchase price to get a new gas bottle and trigger !
Might seem overkill, but on a quiet day on the mooring - which I've been on for decades - I put a foot in the wrong place in the tender and instantly found it inverted on top of me; I was quite chuffed by the auto Krew LJ inflating, even if it did cost me nearly half the purchase price to get a new gas bottle and trigger !
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
There are relatively few boating incidents as it's a fairly benign pastime, but the number recorded by the Coastguard can still run from several a week to several a day depending on the time of year, and range from the engine trouble you mention, to groundings, MOBs, steering failure, crew debilitation due to seasickness, illness or injury, loss of navigational awareness, flooding, fire, and just about every other type of situation you can imagine. Some of them are trivial, some result in serious or life threatening injuries, a few in deaths and/or the loss of a vessel.
The reason that these tend not to be investigated is several fold. The MAIB has finite resources which must be prioritised - four teams of inspectors to deal with all marine casualties occurring in relation to the operation of UK flagged commercial vessels anywhere in the world and commercial vessels of any flag occurring in UK waters. This doesn't leave much capacity to look at incidents involving non-commercial leisure vessels, which in any case fall outside the regulation relating to compulsory reporting and investigaton. However, and as I said some pages back, on occasion non-commercial leisure incidents may be investigated if there is the possibility that doing so will be beneficial in furthering marine safety. It's perhaps the existence of these occasional reports on non-commercial incidents which lead some people to believe that the MAIB investigate serious incidents across the board
lustyd
Well-Known Member
That was kind of my point (and I think yours too), if you were to put numbers on those, the coastguard probably have 30 groundings a week which wouldn't get investigated unless extremely unusual. Engine trouble probably 10 a week, again no real need to investigate. Fire possibly 1-2 a year but usually in a marina and then one incident which is out of the ordinary in a season which will get investigated. As such I suspect that they do in fact investigate every incident worth an investigation, and the RNLI figures are all inclusive to help raise funds while also leading to this kind of thread where those "thousands" of uninvestigated incidents make people scared to go to sea without a life raft.
As I said, I think they are a great idea for the right sailing and boat but as I think someone else said, the silver bullet approach makes people ignore other safety facilities and many with a life raft don't even go on the course because they think it's obvious how to use it and that it will save them in any situation. In reality, if you're on the rocks in poor weather in the big boat, getting in a rubber boat will simply put your flesh and bones closer to those rocks!
blackbeard
Well-Known Member
... Carrying on from this ... liferaft prices do vary substantially, for a 4 man valise roughly from the £600 already mentioned to more than twice that. Any point in buying one of the more expensive ones? Incidentally as cost of servicing throughout useful lifetime of raft will mount up to more than the cost of the raft, it would be worth while making sure that the raft has a 3 year service interval rather than a 1 year.
Somewhat relevant to OP since the cheaper rafts tend to be bulky and probably wouldn't fit in a small boat. Certainly not on mine.
This thread is of some interest to me as I now have to decide whether to replace the original raft which, due to age, has now reverted to 1 year service intervals. Of course there's another option ... to just keep it on the boat without further servicing, and just hope it works if needed ...
Somewhat relevant to OP since the cheaper rafts tend to be bulky and probably wouldn't fit in a small boat. Certainly not on mine.
This thread is of some interest to me as I now have to decide whether to replace the original raft which, due to age, has now reverted to 1 year service intervals. Of course there's another option ... to just keep it on the boat without further servicing, and just hope it works if needed ...
Graham_Wright
Well-Known Member
Was it inside or outside the pushpit?
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Only you can decide since your motivation for carrying it is completely personal. I would suggest though that asking this question strongly indicates that your motivation is not safety since you're not worried enough to make sure it's working. This leaves a few motivations such as accessorising the boat, aesthetics, guilt, uncertainty among others. I'd say have a think about why you feel you need one. If you genuinely want it for safety then spend the money and get it serviced or replace it. If you don't feel you need the safety then remove it since it looks to others like you have an effective raft. At the very least, write on it that it's unserviced and warn potential crew that it's there fore show so they don't rely on it. Most importantly, don't do anything because strangers on the Internet told you it was a good idea
Seajet
...
The weight, stowage space and cost of liferafts is a big deterrent for small boats - say under 30'.
I only do coastal and cross - channel trips so am happy with an inflatable dinghy half blown up on the foredeck, though a sail to get back to land ' Captain Bligh ' style would be nice !
I think it was Zodiac who brought out an especially compact liferaft a while ago ?
The price was a bit eye-watering, but if I was going across oceans I'd seriously consider it.
Meanwhile there's always ' 117 days Adrift' and ' Survive The Savage Sea ' to read.
Merry Christmas,
Andy
I only do coastal and cross - channel trips so am happy with an inflatable dinghy half blown up on the foredeck, though a sail to get back to land ' Captain Bligh ' style would be nice !
I think it was Zodiac who brought out an especially compact liferaft a while ago ?
The price was a bit eye-watering, but if I was going across oceans I'd seriously consider it.
Meanwhile there's always ' 117 days Adrift' and ' Survive The Savage Sea ' to read.
Merry Christmas,
Andy
pmagowan
Well-Known Member
I think everyone would like to have a boat with every piece of potential lifesaving equipment all in perfect order and right at hand if/when needed, however, we don't live in a perfect world and most of us make compromises. I decided that for my 28' wooden boat I would try and maintain a reasonably high level of safety and I prioritised how I would go about this. First, I thought I need to make sure the boat is sea-worthly so I spend the winter replacing keel bolts, rotten planks, chain plates, sails and general rigging etc. Then, I want to know where I am and have the ability to communicate, so I got a good plotter as well as the charts and guides to the waters I use (I built in redundancy with multiple gps devices running off different power, phones etc), VHF, AIS reciever etc. Then I decided I didn't want to fall off and if I did I would want to float, so I got high spec lifejackets and safety lines. Then I thought if the whole boat went under it would be nice to have a raft but I only sail around scotland so I don't need to survive a year in it.
I keep the boat well maintained and the plotter,vhf etc up to date and working. I don't always wear my lifejacket and I don't always clip on. I make a basic analysis of risk and so usually wear it when under way, outside the cockpit, going ashore etc but not when supping a G&T on a flat calm day. The liferaft lives it a relatively inaccessable spot that I presume I could extricate it from in a hurry but not if we dropped like a stone. If a meteor hits us or a killer whale lands on us we are fooked but it is there for when we sedately sink while saving the gin. I have not yet afforded to buy one of these fancy devices to call for help if all else fails. For my type of sailing I am estimating the risks as quite small and although I would like one I can't yet justify it. Maybe Santa would bring me one. I also don't wear an exoskeleton when crossing the road even though the risk is probably much higher.
Each to his/her own.
I keep the boat well maintained and the plotter,vhf etc up to date and working. I don't always wear my lifejacket and I don't always clip on. I make a basic analysis of risk and so usually wear it when under way, outside the cockpit, going ashore etc but not when supping a G&T on a flat calm day. The liferaft lives it a relatively inaccessable spot that I presume I could extricate it from in a hurry but not if we dropped like a stone. If a meteor hits us or a killer whale lands on us we are fooked but it is there for when we sedately sink while saving the gin. I have not yet afforded to buy one of these fancy devices to call for help if all else fails. For my type of sailing I am estimating the risks as quite small and although I would like one I can't yet justify it. Maybe Santa would bring me one. I also don't wear an exoskeleton when crossing the road even though the risk is probably much higher.
Each to his/her own.