Where do you keep your lifteraft (or alternative)?

[Blueboatman]

If the OP chooses not to carry one, I would respectfully advise they carry something.. We used to have half inflated Avon dinghies, or a hard dinghy or lifejackets . A phone in two ziplock bags can save the day -COASTAL- if you are rammed at night ( say) and thrown into the water, wearing a flotation device of some sort.

You can always rent too

I carry mine beneath the helms seat, these things are quite heavy!

I went transatlantic in a 21 ft without a liferaft but these things are now much cheaper but I did a LOT of other preps and ' plan Bs'.

Like MOB procedure, the thing is to have a workable solution ( or two!)..

 

[onesea]

I do not have one, have pondered one TBH at moment the boat has more important things to spend money one.

The boat I have at moment the only place I can see putting one sensible is vertically under the tiller at the back of the cockpit. Could this work for you?

 

[lustyd]

Strange argument.
Liferaft one-off cost £600 ish, service cost £100 p.a. averaged v. larger boat (say 30'+) probably £2K p.a. more to run.
PLB? That is a secondary/tertiary safety device not a primary one.
Boat size has little correlation with cruising range/area but more to do with sailing resource and attitude.

It's all personal preference. I personally would prefer to stay on the yacht knowing someone knows I'm in trouble than get into a floating tent. Even in the water I would prefer being immersed in a lifejacket with a PLB than in a floating tent without one. I've done proper offshore sailing and was quite happy to have a life raft on board for that but we were in a 40' boat. In my 20' boat I don't realistically have space for a dinghy and that would take priority over a life raft for me, as would tools to fix a problem and many other things. Life rafts are seen as some kind of silver bullet by a lot of people but having been in the kind of seas which would result in my using a life raft I can assure you that actually getting off of your big boat and successfully into the little floating tent would be one of the most challenging things you would do in your life and a very last resort. With it tied to the boat it would be pulled all over the place and snatched back and forth while untying it would give you perhaps a second to get in before it disappears.
I'm not against carrying one, but a PLB on every life jacket would be a massive priority for me over a raft of any kind on any boat.

 

[fisherman]

. With it tied to the boat it would be pulled all over the place and snatched back and forth while untying it would give you perhaps a second to get in before it disappears.
.

Ahem....you need to do the training. The tether is ten metres or so long, you would pull the raft to you, get in and cut the tether. Not easy in trying conditions, I agree. A friend is on the rig boats, at over fifty, unfit smoker and drinker, he had to right a 12 man in the pool at the Robert Gordon institute with weather laid on, waves, dark, being hosed down. He managed it, not easily.

 

[lustyd]

Ahem....you need to do the training. The tether is ten metres or so long, you would pull the raft to you, get in and cut the tether. Not easy in trying conditions, I agree. A friend is on the rig boats, at over fifty, unfit smoker and drinker, he had to right a 12 man in the pool at the Robert Gordon institute with weather laid on, waves, dark, being hosed down. He managed it, not easily.

In the pool with weather is not even remotely like at sea with weather on. You say your friend only just made it in in the pool which backs up what I'm saying. Had he already been knackered from whatever caused the raft to be launched and in real weather conditions then the outcome may have been different. I am aware how long the tether is. I am also aware of the size of waves at sea when the weather picks up and 10m won't make it an awful lot better, the life raft will still be all over the place. I've also tried swimming in an inflated LJ and will stick to what I said about preferring to sit still and use a PLB for coastal sailing. The chap who fell out of his RIB in the Irish Sea recently has a similar opinion despite his RIB only having been a few metres away from him.

 

[l'escargot]

I think the idea that some people have that they will be climbing from their sinking boat into their liferaft is somewhat fanciful. You are more likely to be trying to enter it from the water and that is going to be at least as difficult as getting back onboard unassisted after a MOB and if there are others, recovering a MOB unassisted once you get in the liferaft - probably even more difficult.

Unless they have actually done the sea survival course and found out what is involved in climbing into a liferaft from the water in oilies, lifejacket etc., I think many people would probably fail to get in one, getting exhausted in the attempt and actually increasing their risk of drowning. If you can summon help, I think in coastal waters there are more effective ways of increasing your chances of survival than a liferaft.

At the end of the day a liferaft is just another piece of safety equipment you need to learn to use, if you get one do the sea survival course. If you don't know how to use it, it is an expensive decoration on the pushpit that probably won't help you when you need it.

 

[Tranona]

My reasons for carrying a liferaft are not related to boat size but to potential crew and situations. The offshore v. coastal situation only impacts the probable duration of liferaft deployment. By my priority they are:
- primary MOB recovery/shelter device
- immediate refuge for non-firefighting crew in case of fire onboard
- boat damage/integrity problem placing boat at probable risk of sinking
All low probability situations but all high risk ones for vulnerable crew.

In the above situations it is unacceptable (to me) to be dependent on outside sources for immediate assistance.
My crew varies from me (solo) through experienced fit crew to novices and young children. Many of the arguments for not needing a liferaft assume fit capable (uninjured) crew able to take physical action/protection for survival, however, casualties, novice crew and young children do not fit into that category.

Having recently downsized my boat from 32' to 23' I have the same issue as the OP as to how/where to carry a liferaft.
On the 32' boat with sugar scoop stern it was transom mounted and deployable by all crew bar the youngest of children. On the 23' boat I plan to carry a valise raft for flexibility of stowage, in my case it can be the foredeck, cockpit sole or cockpit locker depending on crew and circumstances. The compromise is that deployment will require reasonable strength and mobility by the crew doing it, so little chance of my granddaughter deploying it if I go MOB! (Before the chorus starts, yes, I do have and use harness and lifelines but ....)

BTW, most of my crew would struggle to solo launch an inflatable dinghy from an on-deck passage stowage position.

Edit: liferaft stowage below is not a good location in the event of fire onboard.

If you look at the reports and statistics over the last 20 years or so you will find very few - actually almost no - reports of liferafts being deployed by coastal sailors in small boats, nor indeed many people dying as a result of sinking, nor of fires on small yachts at sea.

You will find some reports of liferafts being deployed and an analysis will show there are 3 underlying causes - extreme weather, collision and structural failure (the last almost exclusively involving racing yachts). None of these incidents involved children. You will also find in a significant minority the liferaft failed to perform as expected.

So there is little to learn from such incidents for the typical coastal leisure sailor who tends not to go out in bad weather, keeps clear of big ships and does not use a boat that falls apart. On the other hand there is a lot to learn from other sources such as the Coastguard and RNLI about how people cope with adverse events and what prevents them becoming disasters. Obviously avoiding the three situations that underly founderings makes sense, then self reliance good communications and personal protection (harnesses, lifejackets, clothing) feature strongly in successful rescues. VHF, DSC, flares and mobile phones all effective in notifying others of a problem, and PLBs (and EPIRBs for offshore work) are becoming more useful.

The most important thing is to avoid relying on a liferaft. Undertaking the survival course, as others have already said will convince you of that. Those who suggest a half inflated dinghy will be a substitute just have no idea of what to expect when a liferaft becomes the only option. You just have to read the accounts from people who have survived liferaft use to know that most are in conditions where a dinghy would be useless.

The increasing popularity of liferafts reflects the low cost compared with other costs - they have fallen in real terms by more than 50% in the last 10 years or so, and, as been hinted at already the psychological value of thinking you have that magic solution should the worst happen (which it won't if you follow a proactive strategy).

 

[carl170]

My reasons for carrying a liferaft are not related to boat size but to potential crew and situations. The offshore v. coastal situation only impacts the probable duration of liferaft deployment. By my priority they are:
- primary MOB recovery/shelter device
- immediate refuge for non-firefighting crew in case of fire onboard
- boat damage/integrity problem placing boat at probable risk of sinking
All low probability situations but all high risk ones for vulnerable crew.

In the above situations it is unacceptable (to me) to be dependent on outside sources for immediate assistance.
My crew varies from me (solo) through experienced fit crew to novices and young children. Many of the arguments for not needing a liferaft assume fit capable (uninjured) crew able to take physical action/protection for survival, however, casualties, novice crew and young children do not fit into that category.

Having recently downsized my boat from 32' to 23' I have the same issue as the OP as to how/where to carry a liferaft.
On the 32' boat with sugar scoop stern it was transom mounted and deployable by all crew bar the youngest of children. On the 23' boat I plan to carry a valise raft for flexibility of stowage, in my case it can be the foredeck, cockpit sole or cockpit locker depending on crew and circumstances. The compromise is that deployment will require reasonable strength and mobility by the crew doing it, so little chance of my granddaughter deploying it if I go MOB! (Before the chorus starts, yes, I do have and use harness and lifelines but ....)

BTW, most of my crew would struggle to solo launch an inflatable dinghy from an on-deck passage stowage position.

Edit: liferaft stowage below is not a good location in the event of fire onboard.

This is the kind of feedback I was looking for!

Having done various outdoor activities over the years, I would want to avoid getting wet if at all possible! The cold saps your strength very quickly.

Years ago I did a canoeing course which involved solo paddling off Tynemouth into the open sea, turning the canoe over, then having to right it, get back in and try to bail it out (whilst being watched by two examiners in a boat nearby!). Very difficult as my head just seemed to freeze when it went underwater (it was in February, mind!).

I may be out with my 9 year old daughter, which is why I was looking at the safest most viable solution. Like any parent, you want to minimise the risks.

I hadn't realised that there were no liferafts used in the last 10 years around the UK coast!

Mind you, once you have added up the cost of a liferaft, epirbs, plbs, etc the costs of sailing are really mounting up!

Having recently watched David Dimbleby towing a tender, I had thought this may be the way to go. Maybe not. Do they really create massive amounts of drag? The tender that came with my boat is wood, heavy and made in about 1928!

Lastly, Is a liferaft really that difficult to get into? I had the idea you simply pulled the cord, watched it inflate, then gently step in (!).

Thanks for you comments so far - this is turning into a very interesting discussion. I have noticed that no-one in my boat club (about 40 or so) has a liferaft anywhere.

Regards

Carl

 

[l'escargot]

...Lastly, Is a liferaft really that difficult to get into?

Yes. Have you actually seen one inflated? Do a course and try it. Then come back and ask the question again. Even go out on a lively day and try getting into a dinghy from the boat or the water, a liferaft is ten times worse.

...I had the idea you simply pulled the cord, watched it inflate, then gently step in...

Really? What conditions do you envisage using one in? Imagine any combination of wind, rain, waves, dark, fire, everyone in the water with no boat, screaming, liferaft 20 yards away, other people you can't see 20 yards away in the opposite direction etc.


It is highly unlikely that you are going to need it on a flat calm, warm sunny day when you can inflate it, bring it alongside and calmly step in...

 

[Seajet]

Fact:

You will never use your liferaft in UK coastal waters. You have waaaay more chance of winning the lottery. Venture across the widest part of the channel or across the Irish or North Sea and you arguably maybe have a greater chance of using the liferaft rather than winning the lottery

Lazy Kipper,

thanks for that reassurance.

The boat I saw catch fire and blow up must have won the lottery then.

 

[prv]

It is highly unlikely that you are going to need it on a flat calm, warm sunny day

I'm not convinced of that. I agree with others that the most likely use of a liferaft is in response to either a fire on board or a collision with either another vessel (Ouzo scenario) or floating debris. I don't buy the idea that you abandon to the liferaft as the yacht is overwhelmed by a storm - because your boat is way better equipped for storms than the "floating tent" (cheers Dave) is.

So, let's only consider fire and collisions. Fire could happen at any time, completely independent of the weather. Maybe it's even more likely in calm weather, as you try something ambitious in the galley? Collision with debris again could happen at any time. I suppose in a flat calm you may be more likely to spot it, but bring on a lovely force 3 sailing day and associated small chop and it's probably hidden just as well as in rough conditions. Collision with another vessel? Well, Pride of Bilbao managed it in good weather. I suppose fog is the most likely scenario for a collision, and that tends to (though of course not always) come with relatively calm seas.

All in all, I think abandoning to the raft is just as likely to happen in calm conditions as in rough - and far more likely to work!

Pete

 

[lustyd]

I'm not convinced of that. I agree with others that the most likely use of a liferaft is in response to either a fire on board or a collision with either another vessel (Ouzo scenario) or floating debris. I don't buy the idea that you abandon to the liferaft as the yacht is overwhelmed by a storm - because your boat is way better equipped for storms than the "floating tent" (cheers Dave) is.

So, let's only consider fire and collisions. Fire could happen at any time, completely independent of the weather. Maybe it's even more likely in calm weather, as you try something ambitious in the galley? Collision with debris again could happen at any time. I suppose in a flat calm you may be more likely to spot it, but bring on a lovely force 3 sailing day and associated small chop and it's probably hidden just as well as in rough conditions. Collision with another vessel? Well, Pride of Bilbao managed it in good weather. I suppose fog is the most likely scenario for a collision, and that tends to (though of course not always) come with relatively calm seas.

All in all, I think abandoning to the raft is just as likely to happen in calm conditions as in rough - and far more likely to work!

Pete

You're right, but as I said for coastal sailing I'd rather be in the water in my LJ with a PLB especially on a calm day. Ouzo was right next to the IOW and had a PLB been on every LJ then it's likely a rescue would have been underway by the time the ferry reached Portsmouth. Lots of people are talking about the cold, but how many of those people have their boats in the water right now? With an LJ on you may not be very useful after 2 hours in the drink but you'd be floating and breathing ready to be fished out by the boys in orange. If nobody knows you're in trouble then you could be in the raft for 2 days before anyone even starts to look at which point they would still need to find the raft whereas a PLB has the locator signal in it which can be used if the GPS fix didn't bring them right to you.

 

[l'escargot]

...All in all, I think abandoning to the raft is just as likely to happen in calm conditions as in rough...

I think you're wrong. I did say a "flat calm, warm sunny day when you can inflate it, bring it alongside and calmly step in". In good/calm conditions you are far more likely to have another boat near by to take you off or rescue you when coastal sailing. Ouzo was after dark and in a collision you are unlikely to have time to bring the liferaft alongside and calmly step in, I would say you are more likely to be climbing into the liferaft from the water. It would be interesting to see some statistics.

 

[Daydream believer]

If ' hanging on even with a drysuit ' is so deadly, how come dinghy sailors do it all the time ?

QUOTE]

Totally different thing
Falling in whilst having a laugh or falling off the sailboard or dinghy even when doing the polar series is vastly different to the stress inducing situation of finding oneself boatless 20 miles off shore
I have capsized dozens of times in my dinghy & as a sailboarder I have found myself seperated from my sailboard. This rarely fazes me as i can deal with it

But get me to fall off my cruiser would be a no-no

 

[Daydream believer]

Fact:

You will never use your liferaft in UK coastal waters. You have waaaay more chance of winning the lottery. Venture across the widest part of the channel or across the Irish or North Sea and you arguably maybe have a greater chance of using the liferaft rather than winning the lottery,


Tell that to the crew of Morning Cloud or Trophy- a long time ago but one that has stuck in my memory bank having seen the crews just before the incidents

This year I was almost run down by a large container vessel in the Black Deep. I missed by less than 60Ft & if not had turned away I would have hit middle of the ship
The year before I had 4 near misses in the channel- by that i mean less than 150 yards

I will keep my liferaft thankyou

 

[Tranona]

I'm not convinced of that. I agree with others that the most likely use of a liferaft is in response to either a fire on board or a collision with either another vessel (Ouzo scenario) or floating debris. I don't buy the idea that you abandon to the liferaft as the yacht is overwhelmed by a storm - because your boat is way better equipped for storms than the "floating tent" (cheers Dave) is.

So, let's only consider fire and collisions. Fire could happen at any time, completely independent of the weather. Maybe it's even more likely in calm weather, as you try something ambitious in the galley? Collision with debris again could happen at any time. I suppose in a flat calm you may be more likely to spot it, but bring on a lovely force 3 sailing day and associated small chop and it's probably hidden just as well as in rough conditions. Collision with another vessel? Well, Pride of Bilbao managed it in good weather. I suppose fog is the most likely scenario for a collision, and that tends to (though of course not always) come with relatively calm seas.

All in all, I think abandoning to the raft is just as likely to happen in calm conditions as in rough - and far more likely to work!

Pete

The reports of all the significant incidents in UK and Irish waters are readily available on the MAIB and Irish equivalent sites. As I noted earlier fire does not feature in incidents that result in liferaft deployment. Most fires occur when the boat is stationary and invariably it is a motor rather than sailboat. Collisions are not usually survivable, although there are exceptions. Ouzo is an example where it is known that the crew survived the sinking. Arguably an EPIRB or PLB would have been helpful in locating the casualties rather than a liferaft. The yacht would have disintegrated and the crew thrown in the water. Difficult to imagine effective deployment and crew boarding the raft, even with a hydrostatic release.

Abandoning ship in extreme weather is uncommon, but rafts are used to transfer casualties or to ease rescue by air. There is no real pattern as each incident is unique and deploying the raft may not always be an option, nor may it have changed the outcome.

There is far more evidence of the effectiveness of rafts in commercial operations, particularly fishing and offshore sectors, but little of those experience is transferable direct to leisure boating.

The picture changes again when you look at offshore sailing, not necessarily because the chances of potential floundering rises, but because of the remoteness from shore based rescue services.

 

[fisherman]

Don't be bamboozled by stats. Say one in ten thousand sailors needs a liferaft in ten years of sailing. This implies that you can sail for ten years with a .01% need for a liferaft. What actually happens is that 9,999 sailors have a zero need for a liferaft and one sailor has a 100% need for one. Another stat: 99.99999% of liferafts in the world are never used and scrapped due to old age. (I made that one up). Likely you never use it and its a complete waste of money

 

[Daydream believer]

My liferaft sits under the mainsheet track. I feel it is far too heavy to lift up from below.
If it was on the coachroof it would be fixed to the hatch garage & as that is only fixed with 6 screws so it would be likely to get swept away complete with the garage in a big sea.
I think that a small boat will not accept that weight on the stern without a big effect on handling

being in the cockpit i can be reasonably secure whilst unstrapping it & can slip it over the stern fairly easily--- I hope!!!!!


View attachment 38188

 

[Daydream believer]

Don't be bamboozled by stats. Say one in ten thousand sailors needs a liferaft in ten years of sailing. This implies that you can sail for ten years with a .01% need for a liferaft. What actually happens is that 9,999 sailors have a zero need for a liferaft and one sailor has a 100% need for one. Another stat: 99.99999% of liferafts in the world are never used and scrapped due to old age. (I made that one up). Likely you never use it and its a complete waste of money

Nobody is saying you have to get one. You have clearly convinced yourself you do not need one so there would be no point in telling you your arguement is folly

But people did not wear seat belts & my life was almost certainly saved by one
Lots of people do not wear life jackets or safety harnesses - I have been over the side 3 times
Lots of people do not get near misses with other craft- I have had collisions with 2 other yachts causing hundreds of pounds of damage & a number of near misses with fishing boats & ships
Lots of people do not have fires on board -- I had one mid North Sea with no VHF in those days ( the part inflated Avon was soon chucked over the side but trying to inflate it was a read difficult job)
Lots of people have not been dismasted- i have been once- plus several times in dinghies but that does not count
Lots of people do not run aground - i have hit every sandbank in the Thames estuary & if I had not had a long keel I suspect one particular grounding may well have punched my current fin straight through the hull
Not every one has been washed against a pier head & had the boat pounded under them - i have

So regardess of what you think I will go for the life raft & just about every other safety device I feel comfortable with

Oh & i won £ 10-00 on the lottery once as well

 

[l'escargot]

...Lots of people do not wear life jackets or safety harnesses - I have been over the side 3 times
Lots of people do not get near misses with other craft- I have had collisions with 2 other yachts causing hundreds of pounds of damage & a number of near misses with fishing boats & ships
Lots of people do not have fires on board -- I had one mid North Sea with no VHF in those days ( the part inflated Avon was soon chucked over the side but trying to inflate it was a read difficult job)
Lots of people have not been dismasted- i have been once- plus several times in dinghies but that does not count
Lots of people do not run aground - i have hit every sandbank in the Thames estuary & if I had not had a long keel I suspect one particular grounding may well have punched my current fin straight through the hull
Not every one has been washed against a pier head & had the boat pounded under them - i have ...

Do you have trouble finding people who want to sail with you?