Where do you keep your lifteraft (or alternative)?

[lustyd]

If you can afford a liferaft and servicing get a bigger boat. If you're one of the few who sail a 23' because you prefer the smaller boat then get a PLB. If you plan on really adventurous sailing then wait until after the first adventure before getting a liferaft and then decide just to make sure you actually will do the adventurous stuff - I changed my mind once on board and chose pleasant sailing or ports on my little boat and left the big stuff for bigger boats.

 

[Seajet]

lustyD,

surely that is missing the point of boats our size, with the responsiveness, feedback feel and easy handling qualities ?

I tried a bigger boat, a 30' cruiser racer with a handsome cup winning pedigree inc the Burnham Open ( 1985 I think ) but couldn't get back to my A22 fast enough !

She has much greater limits & tolerance than me, I expect your boat is similar in this respect.

 

[pmagowan]

I keep my bag type in the forepeak which is not easily accessible but I have the same problem with deck space. I have it as an unlikely requirement which I hope will be available should the worst happen but if we sunk like a stone we will have to rely on life jackets. It's not perfect but having one is better than not.

 

[AHoy2]

My reasons for carrying a liferaft are not related to boat size but to potential crew and situations. The offshore v. coastal situation only impacts the probable duration of liferaft deployment. By my priority they are:
- primary MOB recovery/shelter device
- immediate refuge for non-firefighting crew in case of fire onboard
- boat damage/integrity problem placing boat at probable risk of sinking
All low probability situations but all high risk ones for vulnerable crew.

In the above situations it is unacceptable (to me) to be dependent on outside sources for immediate assistance.
My crew varies from me (solo) through experienced fit crew to novices and young children. Many of the arguments for not needing a liferaft assume fit capable (uninjured) crew able to take physical action/protection for survival, however, casualties, novice crew and young children do not fit into that category.

Having recently downsized my boat from 32' to 23' I have the same issue as the OP as to how/where to carry a liferaft.
On the 32' boat with sugar scoop stern it was transom mounted and deployable by all crew bar the youngest of children. On the 23' boat I plan to carry a valise raft for flexibility of stowage, in my case it can be the foredeck, cockpit sole or cockpit locker depending on crew and circumstances. The compromise is that deployment will require reasonable strength and mobility by the crew doing it, so little chance of my granddaughter deploying it if I go MOB! (Before the chorus starts, yes, I do have and use harness and lifelines but ....)

BTW, most of my crew would struggle to solo launch an inflatable dinghy from an on-deck passage stowage position.

Edit: liferaft stowage below is not a good location in the event of fire onboard.

 

[AHoy2]

If you can afford a liferaft and servicing get a bigger boat. If you're one of the few who sail a 23' because you prefer the smaller boat then get a PLB. If you plan on really adventurous sailing then wait until after the first adventure before getting a liferaft and then decide just to make sure you actually will do the adventurous stuff - I changed my mind once on board and chose pleasant sailing or ports on my little boat and left the big stuff for bigger boats.

Strange argument.
Liferaft one-off cost £600 ish, service cost £100 p.a. averaged v. larger boat (say 30'+) probably £2K p.a. more to run.
PLB? That is a secondary/tertiary safety device not a primary one.
Boat size has little correlation with cruising range/area but more to do with sailing resource and attitude.

 

[l'escargot]

I would say before buying a liferaft for coastal sailing, do the sea survival course and actually see what's involved in using one for real even though it is in benign conditions - in bad conditions in the sea, using one isn't easy. Personally if I thought there was a good chance of getting picked up fairly quickly I would hang on to the boat as long as possible and then take my chances with a good life jacket and a PLB.

 

[AHoy2]

I would say before buying a liferaft for coastal sailing, do the sea survival course and actually see what's involved in using one for real even though it is in benign conditions - in bad conditions in the sea, using one isn't easy. Personally if I thought there was a good chance of getting picked up fairly quickly I would hang on to the boat as long as possible and then take my chances with a good life jacket and a PLB.

From my experience doing RIB safety boat work I wouldn't want to spend more than a few minutes "hanging on" in the water even when wearing a dry suit, cold and waves soon overcome you. For averagely dressed crew it would be "not very many minutes of hanging on" and then only the option of a lifejacket for being found and survival. As you imply, a quick response from others is necessary, even assuming strong, capable crew.

 

[prv]

For what it's worth, in Kindred Spirit (24') we had a valise raft in a locker under the head of the quarter berth. This was right by the foot of the companionway, so it was an easy lift from there into the cockpit (bear in mind that small boats don't have a head-high ladder like many bigger ones). I put an eyebolt in the locker and tied the liferaft painter to it, so that it would be ready to throw over immediately it arrived on deck.

This locker also held all the other emergency gear like flares, bolt croppers, first aid kit, MOB sling, etc (and no, this stuff didn't have to be removed to get the liferaft out). So it was easy when briefing people to just show them the "emergency locker" and say that everything was in there.

Pete

 

[JumbleDuck]

For what it's worth, in Kindred Spirit (24') we had a valise raft in a locker under the head of the quarter berth. This was right by the foot of the companionway, so it was an easy lift from there into the cockpit (bear in mind that small boats don't have a head-high ladder like many bigger ones). I put an eyebolt in the locker and tied the liferaft painter to it, so that it would be ready to throw over immediately it arrived on deck.

My 26' boat came with a valise liferaft. The only sensible place to keep it was the cabin, The only occasions on which I can imagine a liferaft being of any use are (a) sudden sinking and (b) fire. In neither of these cases does it seem at all likely that I would have the time to go into the cabin and retrieve it, so I sold it. If I ever feel the need again it will be a canister, outside. However, I think the statistics suggest that there are much better things to spend the money on.

Incidentally, I too have an emergency stuff locker at the head of a quarter berth.

 

[prv]

My 26' boat came with a valise liferaft. The only sensible place to keep it was the cabin, The only occasions on which I can imagine a liferaft being of any use are (a) sudden sinking and (b) fire. In neither of these cases does it seem at all likely that I would have the time to go into the cabin and retrieve it

That's certainly a valid point. My thinking (at least in the sinking case) was that I could jump down the companionway, grab the raft, and jump out again quicker than I could get onto the foredeck and release something. I regularly did jump down there in that way - there were only two steps and I'd miss out both of them if I was in a hurry, it was literally one jump from steering position to cabin sole. As for fire - the galley was a bit further forward, but a major engine fire certainly wouldn't have been much fun.

I think you're right about the statistics.

Pete

 

[Seajet]

If ' hanging on even with a drysuit ' is so deadly, how come dinghy sailors do it all the time ?

As long as one has a radio of some kind - on the boat or a handheld, PLB etc - and rocket or parachute flares, help will soon be on the way, much as we'd like to think we're all explorers like Shackleton !

 

[charles_reed]

Do you need a liferaft for coastal sailing on a small boat? I wonder how many small boats carry them?

+1

 

[Davegriff]

How 'sudden' can boat sink? I find it hard to believe that many boats take less than, say, 5 minutes to dissappear beneath the waves. Certainly it'll never be instantanious. Make any excuse you like to save the expense of life raft, carrying one still makes sense to me.

 

[Seajet]

How 'sudden' can boat sink? I find it hard to believe that many boats take less than, say, 5 minutes to dissappear beneath the waves. Certainly it'll never be instantanious. Make any excuse you like to save the expense of life raft, carrying one still makes sense to me.

I once saw a 20' ish powerboat catch fire then explode courtesy of the gas cooker then bottle; the crew just had time to leg it over the side, fortunately they were in shallows and able to wade ashore.

 

[geem]

How 'sudden' can boat sink? I find it hard to believe that many boats take less than, say, 5 minutes to dissappear beneath the waves. Certainly it'll never be instantanious. Make any excuse you like to save the expense of life raft, carrying one still makes sense to me.

There is always the possibility on a small boat that you sink under the weight of survival gear!
On our first boat I owned (27ft but not spacious) we didn't have a life raft. We did huge mileage in that boat all over the Irish sea. We had a pair of North Sea survival Suits bought second-hand that came of the rigs. We only had an old Avon dinghy in a locker. I still think this is a valid solution if space is a premium. These days you would add Epirb to this set up and be more than covered for coastal sailing.

 

[JohnGC]

How 'sudden' can boat sink? I find it hard to believe that many boats take less than, say, 5 minutes to dissappear beneath the waves. Certainly it'll never be instantanious. Make any excuse you like to save the expense of life raft, carrying one still makes sense to me.

I think it's rare, but almost "instantaneous" sinking has happened. Keel fell off at night on a coastal passage. Of the three below, two were lost. The yacht sank so quickly that the deck mounted canister liferaft was carried down with the yacht and burst. Four of the crew spent 16 hours swimming to shore.

No single solution is perfect and having more than one option seems wise to me.

 

[JumbleDuck]

How 'sudden' can boat sink? I find it hard to believe that many boats take less than, say, 5 minutes to dissappear beneath the waves. Certainly it'll never be instantanious. Make any excuse you like to save the expense of life raft, carrying one still makes sense to me.

The online calculator at http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/calculator/water-flow-rate-through-orifice.html suggests that a 50mm diameter hole (skin fitting gone) with 0.1 bar across it (1m down) will initially admit 22 tonnes of water per hour to a boat. It wouldn't take much at that rate before working in my cabin and getting things out of lockers would be tricky at best. Punch a 1' diameter hole 10cm below the surface (hello, barely floating tree trunk) and you are looking at 250 tonnes per hour.

Sure, you might have some time, but if you are going to the trouble and expense of a liferaft, you might as well make it usable for as many possible situations as you can. If I ever get another one it will be outside, in a canister and on a Hammar release.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

Fact:

You will never use your liferaft in UK coastal waters. You have waaaay more chance of winning the lottery. Venture across the widest part of the channel or across the Irish or North Sea and you arguably maybe have a greater chance of using the liferaft rather than winning the lottery, but it's a tough call which one. Disagree? Compare the number of trips in small boats in the UK with the MAIB list of liferaft launches in coastal waters in the last 10 years - which I think is still zero.

Emotion:

We carry liferafts in coastal waters because they make us feel safe; darn sure I've got one.


Conclusion:

It doesn't matter where you put it, you'll never use it. But there is the faintest chance of a fire at sea that you can't put out, in which case putting the raft below is a big no no. The other use which has been recorded a few times is as a damn fine MOB recovery device - deploy, let them get in and call the lifeboat. To be honest that and the felling of safety is why we carry one. For that to make sense it has to be up on deck.

 

[Davegriff]

Sure, you might have some time, but if you are going to the trouble and expense of a liferaft, you might as well make it usable for as many possible situations as you can. If I ever get another one it will be outside, in a canister and on a Hammar release.

Which is exactly what I have....

I believe that for a yacht to sink is a pretty rare occurrance anyway, with regard to miles sailed, and even then most founder upon rocks.

A liferaft would never, hopefully, need to be deployed in anger at all. IMHO, it is foolish to put to sea without taking all and any reasonably precautions, an opinion I think echoed by the RNLI et al. What that entails is your call. It is in my view grossly selfish and unfair to expect others to rush immediately to your aid, however willing they may be.

 

[maby]

Which is exactly what I have....

I believe that for a yacht to sink is a pretty rare occurrance anyway, with regard to miles sailed, and even then most founder upon rocks.

A liferaft would never, hopefully, need to be deployed in anger at all. IMHO, it is foolish to put to sea without taking all and any reasonably precautions, an opinion I think echoed by the RNLI et al. What that entails is your call. It is in my view grossly selfish and unfair to expect others to rush immediately to your aid, however willing they may be.

We didn't carry one till the first time we did a passage that took us out of sight of land for a few hours. Of course hope that you'll never need it, but it is reassuring to know that its there.