when will these keels be ready to fall off

So what are these 'webs, mentioned?

Lateral stringers glassed in (mini bulk heads) around the keel bolts, maybe three boxing in the keel bolts?
 
nigelmercier said:
Why would they fall off? They are not held on by the sealant.
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The repeated grounding of bilge keels on boats kept on drying moorings imposes more stress on the hull/keel joint than was originally allowed for in the designer's and builder's lay-up in the area, leading to stress cracking and the eventual possibility of a keel falling off, or punching through the hull on grounding.
 
Twister_Ken said:
The repeated grounding of bilge keels on boats kept on drying moorings imposes more stress on the hull/keel joint than was originally allowed for in the designer's and builder's lay-up in the area, leading to stress cracking and the eventual possibility of a keel falling off, or punching through the hull on grounding.
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Not all designers were that incapable,some boats out there were I'm sure built & designed with exactly that contingency in mind.Centaurs are I expect particularly vulnerable because of their extremely wide angled keels.The lesson is obvious,buy a decent bilge keel boat in the first place.
As for Dylans latest troll:You have to wonder at a bloke that dos'nt know if the keels are about to fall off but is considering cutting out a hole in the bottom & carrying out a major modification.The costs & problems are rising:Not to late to consider taking up golf Dylan!;)
 
Nicholas123 said:
Not all designers were that incapable,some boats out there were I'm sure built & designed with exactly that contingency in mind.Centaurs are I expect particularly vulnerable because of their extremely wide angled keels.The lesson is obvious,buy a decent bilge keel boat in the first place.
As for Dylans latest troll:You have to wonder at a bloke that dos'nt know if the keels are about to fall off but is considering cutting out a hole in the bottom & carrying out a major modification.The costs & problems are rising:Not to late to consider taking up golf Dylan!;)
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Must admit, I was wondering about the logic of building a well being an 'acceptable' amount of work whilst rebedding keels was a step too far. I thought it was just a case of building a cradle for the keels, wait for a quiet day on the yard, life the boat, knock out the keels, clean them, add sealant and drop them back on - two men, 8 hours?

New outboard well - days?
 
Please

Nicholas123 said:
)
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Please don't use that ugly word on me

it is very rude

and offensive to suggest that the words I write do not come from the heart

please read this before using that word on me



As you may know I spent seven consecutive summer weeks on Katie L. I slept aboard every night. Of the 50 days sailing up the driest stretch of coast in the UK it rained too hard to sail for perhaps ten days.

Katie L offers full standing headroom only when laying down or when standing in the companionway. It is a great place on a summer’s evening and contemplatinf the delights of a new harbour – if it is raining you are standing under an umbrella



Day 1 is not too bad… day three you turn the boat around just for the change of view.

By day five the strain is showing.

I have been watching Scottish summer weather through the BBC weather site. It rains a lot more up there than it does in Northumbria. So I could easily double the lost days.

So for this very wet part of the journey I could do with being able to stand up and cook in the dry.

In many places the only shelter is in stone harbours. Some have very aggressive stone walls. I would hate Katie L to get knocked about – too precious.

I am hoping that for most of the Scottish part of the journey I will be joined either by Jill, my son or even my daughter. To be able top offer my son or my daughter their own space will be most welcome. If you were a 21 year old girl would you really relish the idea of sharing space with a 58 year old man – even if he is your father. Actually especially if he is your father. She can have the whole front cabin to trash as much as she likes.



I can sleep in the quarter berth

In addition, Centaur could acomodate four people and a dog.

It is also big enough to accommodate three blokes sailing for two nights and three days at a stretch. YouA Centaur is three tonnes, 26 foot long, built like a brick house.

It can face down a lot more weather than Katie L can – she is, after all a one tonne trailer sailer. could sail through 90 per cent of the weather the summer offers up

That would be a big ask of Katie L with three blokes aboard.

I really do want to go to the Orkneys and maybe even the Shetlands. Katie L could do it as long as I spend time waiting for the right weather window – which is basically a high.

So if I can get a Centaur up and running with a reliable engine in it then I can leave Katie L ashore in Scotland, spend next summer sailing as far North as I dare go.

Certainly it will not be as good as a Centaur with a good working diesel but ti will have the accommodation of a Cemtaur, it will sail like a Centaur and it will motor like the slug – if I am lucky.

The cockpit will be noisy, there will be less space in the cockpit but ti will have an engine that I can guarantee will start when I ask it to.

In addition – the lobster pots won’t be able to get me.

Once I get back down into the shelter of the Islands then I can bring Katie L through the canal and swap the two boats over. With the islands and long sea lochs Katie L will be back as the boat of choice.

I can sell the Centaur for whatever it will fetch and go back to my Darling Katie L.

There is one other factor…. I really need a proper desk to work at. If I am to spend more time aboard I need to be able to work

I just cannot contrive one that works in Katie L.

Of course, none of this might happen – it all depends on making the money add up.

In the meantime I I am planning to spend the winter sailing the DP down around the Solent -



there are quite a few boat yards down there

some have old Centaurs in them

some of them have been ashore for five years

a few of them have dead engines

it would not do any harm to have a look at one or two of them now would it.

Nothing venture… nothing gain
 
Swanrad2 said:
Must admit, I was wondering about the logic of building a well being an 'acceptable' amount of work whilst rebedding keels was a step too far. I thought it was just a case of building a cradle for the keels, wait for a quiet day on the yard, life the boat, knock out the keels, clean them, add sealant and drop them back on - two men, 8 hours?
Click to expand...

It was less a case of resealing keels, more about strengthening of the keel stubs to stop them failing catastrophically already having been done.
 
Wee hint for the North Dylan before you get here or write about them. Drop the S from the back of Orkney and Shetland please. Its just as I've written it, or with "Islands" after them. Its a wee pet-hate for them. Do not pass without going there though. You wont believe how nice it is, and its packed with wildlife you could only dream of seeing "doon sooth".

Fingers crossed you can find a Centaur. Theres an old square window one up here that a guy is trying to sell. He's been trying for years now, and is still under the illusion he will get 12 grand for it. Its been ashore for about 9 years, and looks rough as hell!! No chance!
Good luck...
 
Twister_Ken said:
The repeated grounding of bilge keels on boats kept on drying moorings imposes more stress on the hull/keel joint than was originally allowed for in the designer's and builder's lay-up in the area, leading to stress cracking and the eventual possibility of a keel falling off, or punching through the hull on grounding.
Click to expand...

That is NOT true, My W31 & thousands of Centaurs & Pageants etc have been drying out for up to 50 years without ANY problems. The problems arise (if they do at all) when a boat has been drying out in SOFT mud or sand & sinking in. This flexes the keels out on the way down & in on the way up, & it is this flexing that weakens the stubs & allows water into the keel bolts which may corrode (altho they are s/s, I presume you can get crevice corrosion).

Any L-G design that has been settling on a firm sea bottom on a sheltered mooring will almost certainly be unaffected. Lift the floor boards & look for cross bracing if you want to know if the modification has been done. Bits of tatty sealant are utterly irrelevant unless the keel(s) move when the boat is lifted - but that sort of deterioration will show up as visible gaps on the inner side of the keels & the bolts will also show movement rather than being flush & firmly against the gel coat.
 
josephmoore said:
It was less a case of resealing keels, more about strengthening of the keel stubs to stop them failing catastrophically already having been done.
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Have you ever known that to happen then? Without a serious lee shore grounding that would kill any boat I mean? Only a handful of the hundreds of L-G westerly designs have had keel problems in my neck of the woods - including mine which has been on a drying mooring (or some winters on the hard) for the whole 25 years I have owned it. And mine is a 7 ton Westerly Pentland.

Last year I anchored a little too close to shore for shelter with 4 adults aboard & we got a bit of a pounding for two periods of 20 minutes as we dried out & later refloated. It was unpleasant, but there was absolutely no damage whatsoever & nor would I expect any. These boats are not like modern lightweights, they are really solidly built.
 
Searush said:
That is NOT true, My W31 & thousands of Centaurs & Pageants etc have been drying out for up to 50 years without ANY problems. The problems arise (if they do at all) when a boat has been drying out in SOFT mud or sand & sinking in. This flexes the keels out on the way down & in on the way up, & it is this flexing that weakens the stubs & allows water into the keel bolts which may corrode (altho they are s/s, I presume you can get crevice corrosion).

Any L-G design that has been settling on a firm sea bottom on a sheltered mooring will almost certainly be unaffected. Lift the floor boards & look for cross bracing if you want to know if the modification has been done. Bits of tatty sealant are utterly irrelevant unless the keel(s) move when the boat is lifted - but that sort of deterioration will show up as visible gaps on the inner side of the keels & the bolts will also show movement rather than being flush & firmly against the gel coat.
Click to expand...



so how do I tell if the boat I end up with has a problem

on the face of it the boat in the images looks pretty frightening

but it seems that a bit of movement is not necessarily terminal

if it has been strengthened then it is alright?

or is there more to it than this?

also what about potential rudder problems

for my purposes it seems that the spade rudder version might be a better bet

does anyone have any ideas why they changed the design and when?

early in the thread it was alleged that three went down in one club

aaaagh!

also osmosis..... much of it about in Centaurs?

not a problem for me on this project

Dylan

PS - very keen to hear about candidate boats


dylan.winter@virgin.net
 
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Searush said:
Have you ever known that to happen then? Without a serious lee shore grounding that would kill any boat I mean? Only a handful of the hundreds of L-G westerly designs have had keel problems in my neck of the woods - including mine which has been on a drying mooring (or some winters on the hard) for the whole 25 years I have owned it. And mine is a 7 ton Westerly Pentland.

Last year I anchored a little too close to shore for shelter with 4 adults aboard & we got a bit of a pounding for two periods of 20 minutes as we dried out & later refloated. It was unpleasant, but there was absolutely no damage whatsoever & nor would I expect any. These boats are not like modern lightweights, they are really solidly built.
Click to expand...

Yes - a chap I know (and forumite here) had his new to him boat sink on its drying mooring last year. It wasn't a Westerly, but was bilge keel of similar type keels/vintage and the joint gave up. It does happen.

For clarification, I wasn't bashing Westerlys in that previous comment; merely clarifying the guy's confusion about the task Dylan was concerned about and how it was different from just sticking a bit of fresh sealant in. I'm sure there are plenty of them which are absolutely sound and plenty which have been unlucky.
 
Look, Dylan, either you employ a surveyor or you start learning about the boats. It's no good listening to gossip from people who have never owned or sailed one.

Talk to people who have them (not ones that are up for sale!) & ask them. They will tell you if they had a problem what they did about it & probably tell you how much it cost if you ask nicely. People trying to sell their boat will just want to tell you how good it is.

I had a bit of osmosis on mine & I got fed up with repairing the then 35 yo MD2b, as I had recently taken voluntary redundancy I threw a bundle of money at it & had a new Yanmar 3YM30 professionally installed & a proper strip, dry & re-gelcoat done. Cost me about the same as I had originally paid for the boat (some 20 years earlier), but virtually gave me a new boat in return. Five years on she is now 40 years old & utterly reliable. But I may need to invest in some sails shortly as they are probably original equipment too.

Keels have some rust pitting & a chip or two (so have clearly seen some action) and the sealant gets "pointed" every few years to keep it looking better, but the keels & bolts have never shown any sign of weakness, movement or even weeping. The stern gland is another issue, I must get a couple of C-spanners & replace the packing this year.
 
Searush said:
Any L-G design that has been settling on a firm sea bottom on a sheltered mooring will almost certainly be unaffected.
Click to expand...

I had a L-G designed Westerly with a fin keel. The keel attachment was woefully inadequate: layup increased from 1/4" to 3/8" between the keel and backing plate and for about 1/2" around. Very floppy and lots f flexing whether dried out or not. Three gallons of resin, a hundred square feet of glass and five tapered stainless sloors later I had a keel attachment I trusted.

Of course the Centaur was different, but I am afraid that there too the L-G/Westerly combination was a bit overoptimistic. But, as I wrote before, a Centaur which has never dried out or has never dried out much may be fine.
 
Searush said:
Look, Dylan, either you employ a surveyor or you start learning about the boats. It's no good listening to gossip from people who have never owned or sailed one.

Talk to people who have them (not ones that are up for sale!) & ask them. They will tell you if they had a problem what they did about it & probably tell you how much it cost if you ask nicely. People trying to sell their boat will just want to tell you how good it is.

I had a bit of osmosis on mine & I got fed up with repairing the then 35 yo MD2b, as I had recently taken voluntary redundancy I threw a bundle of money at it & had a new Yanmar 3YM30 professionally installed & a proper strip, dry & re-gelcoat done. Cost me about the same as I had originally paid for the boat (some 20 years earlier), but virtually gave me a new boat in return. Five years on she is now 40 years old & utterly reliable. But I may need to invest in some sails shortly as they are probably original equipment too.

Keels have some rust pitting & a chip or two (so have clearly seen some action) and the sealant gets "pointed" every few years to keep it looking better, but the keels & bolts have never shown any sign of weakness, movement or even weeping. The stern gland is another issue, I must get a couple of C-spanners & replace the packing this year.
Click to expand...

that is exactly why I am asking on here

to get information from people such as your good self - who can always be relied upon for common sense

I have been on the forums enough to know that you have to filter out some of the clutter

I am sure that the ratio of good information to advice completely divorced from first hand experience is no higher here than anywhere elsse

D
 
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