When to reef genoa

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SouthPark

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How do I tell that the genoa needs reefing? I know that the main needs reefing when it becomes tricky to stop the boat rounding up in the gusts. I imagined that lee helm would be a signal to reef the genoa, but I never seem to have any.

The boat is a Moody 376, BTW, which has a much bigger genoa than main, if that's relevant.

And when do I use the staysail? I have a furling one on an inner forestay but I haven't used it yet. Beating into a strong wind is the obvious use, but is it also a reaching sail for strong winds?

So much to learn.....

SouthPark

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Very hard to say really, ideally you should have about 5 degrees of weather helm (at the rudder, not the wheel) when going to windward, if its any less then take some genny in. But those 5 degrees are dependant on a lot of other factors too.

Basically, just keep things balanced, if you've reduced a lot of main and you're still a bit overpowered, wind a bit of genny in.

With regards to the staysail, if the conditions are such that the genoa is significantly reefed (ie more than a few rolls), then you should probably use it instead and perhaps increase the main area if you feel underpowered. A reefed genny isn't as good as a small staysail, and your genny will last longer if you do this.

You can use it for reaching too, but if you're on a broad reach or run, crack out the big genny and shake the reefs out of the main, just make sure you're well clipped on :)

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Forget about lee helm, too much sail wherever it is will cause weather helm. It depends on the boat I guess and the genoa size (130% is usual for a roller, could be 150%, figs are for overlap over foretriangle area). For us with a masthead rig and big main, big 130% genoa we take 1 reef in the main first, then roll the genoa to 1st mark if more is needed, then 2nd main reef, more rolls and so on. We have a detachable cutter stay and staysail (also storm jib) for it, but this requires setting up and isn't normally used unless we are expecting to have heavy going upwind for some distance - normally avoided! If you have a furling staysail, you could use this say upwind from F5 up with a main reefed as required, if the staysail is initially too little pull out a little of the genoa as well it will make a surprising differene to speed and is easily put away when the expected wind arrives.

The above is the ideal, in reality and especially for short distances some of us have been known to take more and more rolls in the genoa and b$$$$r going on deck to reef the main. On our current boat we do all the (slab) reefing from the cockpit so there is less prevarication about reefing the main, not unheard of though...

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
staysail

if the outer foresail is a genoa (deck scraper) rather than a yankee (high cut clew) then the staysail is not intended to be set at the same time ( except when just a corner of the genoa is set in heavy weather as previously mentioned).

your best clue is to look at the weight of cloth in the staysail. if it is heavy like the mainsail you have a storm sail. if it is lighter it is more likely to be a leftover from an original cutter rig.

next time you are out in strong winds, try the full staysail on its own and in conjunction with the main fully reefed. that will give you an idea of what to expect in a gale. i expect you'll find she goes quite well to windward even with the staysail alone.

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I find that the genoa also generates weather helm - from heeling the boat too much, whereas the main generates the weather helm due to the centre of effort in the sail plan. I have a very large rolling genoa (140% ish) and tend to put a few rolls in that before reefing the main, just to get the heel angle down. If I'm going a fair distance I'll tuck a slab in the main as well, but for pottering about I often just let the main down the track and perhaps ease the mainsheet a bit to spill some wind from the top of the main.
As to when I decide to do it - I use the weather helm as a guage

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Certainly, the main will heavily contribute to weather helm - but it doesn't follw that the genoa will produce lee helm.

On the contrary, when fully unfurled, the point where the genoa sheet goes through the car on the traveller is usually well behind the centre of rotation - hence a gust will pull the boat round to windward.

On my boat, this is quite marked and just rolling a bit of genoa away and moving the car forward reduced weather helm considerably without the need to reef the main (which is necessarily a bit more awkward).

Of course, as windspeed increases, a reef is also need in the main.

As some additional information, I find that my boat gets overpressed fairly quickly and that the reefed main and 2/3 to 1/2 genoa makes her pick up her skirts and go (oo er missus!)

Magic

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Very interesting info from everyone. In the last bit (and only bit, actually, the boat is new to me) of heavyish weather I had two reefs in the main and full genoa in 22-25 knots apparent on a broad reach. We saw 8 knots on the log and the boat was sailing fast, controllable and flat. I guess that you can get away with more sail on a broad reach and I might have had to roll away some genoa if I'd come up to a beam reach - or even swapped genoa for staysail.

The most useful thing for me is to know that it's not lee helm that's my warning that I need to start rolling away my genoa.

One question. Magic_sailer said:
"On the contrary, when fully unfurled, the point where the genoa sheet goes through the car on the traveller is usually well behind the centre of rotation - hence a gust will pull the boat round to windward."

Isn't it the centre of effort that's the significant factor, not the position of the car? Think about what would happen to the boat if (in the absence of any other forces) you gave it a shove in the middle of the genoa (standing off the boat, obviously). It would pivot away from you about the keel - thus pointing the bows away from you. If you replace your hand with the wind the effect is the same. No?

SouthPark

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Cornish Maid is virtually the same; there is little book that we found on board written by Mr Moody, that recommended reducing sail from F3/4.
But my experience is that it depends on the angle of the wind, and if you are trying to overtake/stop being overtaken at the time. Comfortably, with the wind aft of the beam, reduce main first, then genoa (this is the sail that provides most of the drive). On the wind, reduce each by about the same amount as the healing moment increases. The boat doesn't sail any quicker when healed excessively, though it might feel as if it does. We can set the boat up to steer herself in smoothish seas at about 30deg to apparent wind, so she is easy to balance. A near-neutral helm is what you should aim for initially, and experiment with different combinations of sail from there, judging the effect by watching the log.
But the best thing is to just experiment, and find what suits you best.
The Moody 37/376 is a lovely boat, you should have really some good sailing from her.

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To reiterate, the important point - made by a couple of people above - is that weather helm in high winds (enough to be thinking about reefing) is caused by the heeling of the boat. This makes the underwater shape asymmetrical and so turns the hull: so excess sail will produce weather helm wherever it is. Fore/aft balance of sail areas is a minor effect compared with this, and only controls lee/weather helm in lighter winds - or on a cat...

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That's not my understanding at all - nor my experience.

If you are experiencing weather helm - as a rule of thumb

1. Move the main sheet car to leeward
2. When you can't do that anymore - reef

Sail plan does have a big effect.

Magic

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Quite!
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1. Move the main sheet car to leeward

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- which de-powers the main, reducing heel...
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2. When you can't do that anymore - reef

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- which again reduces heel.

The effect of heel is the reason that a lot of modern "accomodation oriented" designs with heavily curved topsides (in plan) will round up so fiercely in a gust despite having huge genoas and tiny mains.

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