when im sailing hard upwind why dose my tiller loose feeling?

trouville

trouville

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Im sailing an ultra modern fin lightweight craft.When sailing in quite strong wind around F5+ as it ingresses my helm goes light???

When in sailing down wind in the same airs and plus she wants to broch and the helms useless??Down wind i have one reef in the main and spinika up wind full main and genoa

On the FB i had the same and full feel helm?Though not nearly so fast downwind the GPS is giveing 12+knots???? On the FB about half+

Whats wrong? On one try i was almost thrown out of the cockpit as she broched my safety line and grabing the rail saved me are such fast modern desins realy safe??

Before someone says why i wanted to see what she could do speed handeling wise
 
Radical modern boats of the lightweight persuasion can be like that.They're meant to be sailed with a few gorillas sitting on the rail to keep them upright .They're fast allright but all that speed is useless if you can't control the boat.Horses for courses I'd say.Fine for a day out with the boys only don't go cruising in them.
 
NOT A BOAT DESIGNER SO i DONT KNOW THE ANSWER IN TERMS OF HYDRODYNAMICS. (forgive the caps _ I didnt know they were on). The practical answer is to slow down - full sail plus a spinny in F5 is too much and the boat is overpowered.

of cousre lightweight boats are safe, arguably more so than the heavy old fashioned types that suffer a battering because of their weight. but an arpege is an old design. we have moved on from there - and will move on further as time goes on.
 
The boats quite new she was built in 1969 and has the latest keel technology a deep fin with a large lump of iron at the end! At least she looks modern?

I dont often use a spinika unless its in light winds as i have problems getting it down.As it happened i left in a light breeze rounded the point where a large hand seemed to throw me forwards and on,after the broach i could get the spinica in then a reef in before going back!

What worries me is on a long voyage say a day and half passage if it blows id have to change sail reef and perhaps heave to,with the folkboat a simple reef and back to sleep is enough

Another point is the helm is so "quick" my electric self steering dosent seem to manage always?

Should i add ballast?? If so where??I was told it might help??????I thought that was only for traditional boats???
 
If she's a lightweight then she must rely on form stability. If the centre of buoyancy moves forward as she heels, then you would get more lee helm, which is what I would associate with a light tiller. It sounds like she's meant to be sailed as upright as possible.
 
The Dufour Arpege's was a fast and safe sailing yacht, but not a lightweight by modern standards. Adding ballast would not be the best of ideas. We had its successor , the Dufour 2800, for years. It has the same sailplan. To avoid the broaching situation, we always reefed the mainsail in abit of a blow; since on our boat the first reef wasn't a massive slab, it increased speed most of the time, as the boat was sailed more upright. We found this the best way to avoid broaching. Tweaking the mainsheet by not sheeting it in too much helps too.
 
yes a lee helm.

On the folkboat if it began to blow and i hadent far to go i never bothered to reef,as you say on the Arpege its not an option!Why is reefing such hard work??

By now sail designers i would have though,would have developed a sail with say opening panels to depower,like a hot air ballon,just pull a line or two for one reef or two!!??

As for the electric pilot,it seems to be working far to much??Far far more than it did on the FB is that because of the quick helm? or my bad sail balance??The helms quite light at any time.
 
I always thought the Arpege was one of the old school in terms of displacement, but I guess it does have a long skinny keel. I have sailed a modern boat of 34ft in strong conditions and found it worked very well, but we were deeply reefed fore and aft, and I feel that is the secret. You have to reef early to suit the conditions if you are to avoid the gripes!
 
I had a similar problem on my Trident 24: it turned out to be a matter of trim. With the engine, fuel, gas, me (no lightweight!) and all the gear stowed in the nice big cockpit lockers she was trimmed badly down by the stern, and was virtually unmanageable. Like you the autohelm couldnt keep up and she would wander all over the place while the AH would blow a fuse. A total pain, and no fun sailing.

I filled the main water tank forward, (100+litres) and handling improved, so I made up some 30kg sand sacks and experimented placing them up forward, and found with around an extra 150kg up forward handling improved out of all recognition. The AH no longer blows a fuse, but settles down to a nice steady course, the helm remains light and responsive, but everything is (usually) under proper control again.
 
I filled the main water tank forward, (100+litres) and handling improved, so I made up some 30kg sand sacks and experimented placing them up forward, and found with around an extra 150kg up forward handling improved out of all recognition. The AH no longer blows a fuse, but settles down to a nice steady course, the helm remains light and responsive, but everything is (usually) under proper control again.

***************************************************

Reminds me of the time I was helming brother in laws boat downwind in a 5/6 and after a few half hearted broaches I sent sister in law from the cockpit to the forecabin berth. SHe of course did not appreciate my reference to movable ballast..
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Solved our problem and boat performed flawlessly for the rest of the journey past the Houses of Parliament to ST Katts Yachthaven... Yes trim can be important even on a Birchwood 26 with cockpit cover erected /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Perhaps i should try again with a couple of people aboard,good idea!Then think about where to put the wine tanks!What a very good idea!

I think i might have to much weight forward?As the cockpits quite long.

Problem with the med in winter touch wood,a lot of the time there are light changeable winds which i thought this would be ideal for with a cloud of sail(very large very light genoa)passages take quite long,though with enough good food ready and a plastic glass to hand,sometimes a book or radio time and miles pass quickly

The alternative is a gale of wind which arrives quickly,it can really blow in winter,but really bad blows are forcast,ordinary bad not always!With the 12 ton Hillyard and 2 ton folkboat i reefed and pressed on with this im no longer sure at the moment.

As has been said Apeges have a safe reputaion so its down to my sail setting lack of enough reefing and weight distribution?I hope!!Now i just need volentees to go out in a F3 might be difficult as even an F3 can build up suddenly to F5 before stopping altogether!The med is "special" as wind goes
 
I know everything is relative - but a 40year old Arpege would not be described as "modern" in some circles!!! But I do see where Trouville is coming from!

Not a great enthusiast, but isn't current racing thinking all about wide shallow hulls & form factor stability - or is that out-of-date now?
 
[ QUOTE ]
The boats quite new she was built in 1969 and has the latest keel technology a deep fin with a large lump of iron at the end! At least she looks modern?

I dont often use a spinika unless its in light winds as i have problems getting it down.As it happened i left in a light breeze rounded the point where a large hand seemed to throw me forwards and on,after the broach i could get the spinica in then a reef in before going back!

What worries me is on a long voyage say a day and half passage if it blows id have to change sail reef and perhaps heave to,with the folkboat a simple reef and back to sleep is enough

Another point is the helm is so "quick" my electric self steering dosent seem to manage always?

Should i add ballast?? If so where??I was told it might help??????I thought that was only for traditional boats???

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure the boat is tha apple of your eye, but she's about as ultra modern as a Morris Marina of the same era!

Anyway, as a wide beamed boat heels (and the arpege is wide compared to the folk boat) the water line profile changes and starts to generate lift. If the forces at play become too large, they overpower the rudder, you try to use more rudder, its stalls and loses what grip it did have. So the rudder goes light - its useless.

Obviously there are things you could do with sail trim top reduce the heeling tendency a bit, and if you added additional ballast that you could move up to the windward side, that would help too. But thats not practical whilst reefing down is. The boat is simply overpressed.

Yes you can expect a design like an Arpege or lots of other more modern dewsigns to look after you less well than you old FB. Thats the price you pay for going faster and having more room in a similar LOA.

And yes, the response time of your autohelm needs to match the speed of response of the boat. What you need for an FB wont do for the boat you have.

If its any consolation I once had a Hunter that was just as flighty. Sailed beautifully for an overgrown dinghy, but thats not what you want if you are single handing, is it?
 
The fact is i dont like plastic as my main liveaboard.Its very solid far safer than an old wooden boat with thousands or rivits frames and planks that could begin to work in a bad sea,but thats the way it is with wood.Good maintanence checks and care go some way to safety.

I had the option to go around to a port (paid) i knew there would be a blow but went anyway as shes plastic and solid.she did realy well inspite of my negligence,she almost threw me out of the cockpit in retern!

Boats even plastic are female!!I dont like my boat but i respect her and shes all i have.

She is faster easier to manover but more demanding and plastic has far less apeal when living with it.
 
Some basic aspects of physics may be rearing their ugly heads.
Firstly the load on a rudder will increase dramatically with speed. You are probably beating at a moderate speed with a good helm balance hence it feels light but increase the speed on a run and if you do tend to broach the rudder loads will be huge.

Secondly when you are running down wind your boat speed is subtracted form wind speed to give apparent wind a lot lesss than real wind. When you turn under spin to a shy run you get the full wind trying to knock your boat over and requiring real rudder power because of the tendency to round up when heeling.

So I think your boat is very normal high performance and you should enjoy it. Just remember that it doesn't need so much sail and will be more comfortable with less. olewill
 
That describes it,ill just have to get up on deck a bit sooner!The grp dose give confidence in my wooden boats i often looked below during a hard passage touched would to hope nothing would work.I always thought of the broken frames at those times.

Grp for the passage and wood for the port.I wish i had the money to buy a good but rotten wooden boat(That i could do)and a GRP hull then refit the classic wooden boat with the GRP hull(that i cant aford)
 
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