When does a boat become 'old and uneconomic'

[pcatterall]

Our Neptunian is some 40 years old and I often hear comments about maintaining an older boat and suggestions that over a certain age a boat becomes uneconomic.

In our own case I seem to spend more time and money replacing parts and equipment that have been bought in the last few years. The main structure of the boat seems to have survived with very little spent on it over her lifetime.

Certain items subject to wear and tear like sails and cordage will certainly have been renewed but then these items will have, say, a 4 or 5 year cycle. Even the engine ( subject to hours run) will probably need replacing after 10 years ( though our trusty 4108 is the original)

So apart from styles changing, layout etc. ( for better or worse) it makes little economic sense to me to spend loads of dosh on the newest boat I can find. I wonder if anyone shares my view?

 

[Tranona]

If you are considering it from the point of view of long term ownership then there are two things to bear in mind. First is the annual cost of ownership and the second is your assessment of how you value that expenditure. When the former exceeds the latter then the boat is "uneconomic" - although it may not be old and it may not be the same for somebody else.

If you consider, say a 10 year period you may well find a new boat is actually cheaper on an average annual basis to own than an older boat. Major annual costs are largely fixed (berthing, haul outs, insurance etc). The imponderables such as depreciation and repairs, replacements may actually be similar. So on a new boat, depreciation will be higher but replacements etc lower.

I did these sorts of sums (sometimes called man maths!) when I changed my boat. The existing boat was 12 years old and bought new, valued at £40k, but buyer spent £10k just in materials to get it back in decent shape (without new sails), so cost £50k. New boat cost £100k. Depreciation on old boat over next 10 years will probably be £20k, and new boat £40k, so £2k a year difference. Almost certainly repairs etc on the older boat will make up much of the difference. Add to that new boat is coppercoated so saving approx £500 a year in haulout and AF.

Of course this is rather simplistic (for example i have ignored opportunity cost of capital), but if you can afford the outlay, buying a new boat need not be necessarily more expensive in money terms - but in my view way exceeds an older boat in perceived benefits - although in my younger days I got just as much pleasure out of fixing boats as sailing them.

So, not a definitive answer as I don't think one exists. It all depends on you and your perception of what gives you value. However you boat it is not "cheap", but there are many ways of spending your money - just make sure you value what you get for that expenditure.

 

[Concerto]

I approached the problem from a different angle. After a break of 20 years from sailing, it was a question of what to buy. I was thinking of about 32 to 35ft as I was planning on singlehanding. I like a certain amount of performance, but not worried about double aft cabins or showers on board. My budget was flexible enough that I could have bought a new 32 footer, but I decided I did not like the truncated bows, wide beam travelling almost to the transom. Having sailed in the 60's, 70's and 80's on a wide variety of racing and cruising boats, I like a more traditional fin and skeg type design. Also having used 3/4 rigs in the past, they made sail handling easier when singlehanded as the mainsail was easy to control and the genoa easier to winch. Having set a generous budget, it then was selecting the best design. I settled on the Westerly Fulmar as it had a good performance and a trusted builder with a strong following.

Trying to find the right Fulmar was difficult. I missed out of an excellently maintained version with the original engine, then found a clean and tidy one with a new engine but suffering from a high moisture level in the hull. Eventually I bought a tired looking one, with a recent engine, a new mast in 1996, and most of the headlings been replaced. The price was keen and it was local to me, so I agreed to buy it. Since then I have worked hard on getting it just the way I want it as I plan to keep her for at least 10 years.

The crunch is it has cost me about a third of the cost of a new boat, even though I have added lots of new equipment, sails, electronics, upholstry, heating, canvas work, running rigging, etc., etc. Yes I have spent a lot of time working on the boat, which I enjoy, but I also enjoy distance sailing. I expect I will loose only a small amount on my total spend as condition is everything for buyers. The depreciation will be minimal compared to the new boat, so overall I will be better off when I finally swallow the anchor.

The final point I should make is the money I did not spend on a new boat has been invested in a flat for my daughter whilst at university. It has been earning me some money that is better than holding on deposit and the capital gain will probably exceed the depreciation on the boat over 10 years!

 

[geem]

The final point I should make is the money I did not spend on a new boat has been invested in a flat for my daughter whilst at university. It has been earning me some money that is better than holding on deposit and the capital gain will probably exceed the depreciation on the boat over 10 years![/QUOTE]
I had a very similar view to you when we bought our current boat. As an engineer I actually enjoy working on the boat and improving/refurbishing the various mechanical and electrical systems. If we had bought a new boat of the same specification it would have cost many 100 of thousands. Instead we have invested in property to rent out and provide us an income and a growing asset. Since our boat has been valued at far more than we originally paid for it I dont expect to lose much on it when we eventually sell it but our property already has risen in value and the rental income is good. The rental income alone has more than paid for thr boat refurbishment costs.

 

[colhel]

the day you buy it

 

[johnalison]

The economics of a boat that you already own are different to those of an old boat that you are proposing to buy or sell. You can continue to sail an old boat happily and even safely when it appears too tatty, old-fashioned, or ill-equipped to appeal to anyone else. By this time, its value will be diminished, but you may not mind this if you are saving on replacement costs and future sale of the boat is not a concern. An old 40' boat will be attractive to someone, so the question for the OP becomes a matter of whether he is still enjoying sailing and owning her.

 

[aquaplane]

You can continue to sail an old boat happily and even safely when it appears too tatty, old-fashioned, or ill-equipped to appeal to anyone else. By this time, its value will be diminished, but you may not mind this if you are saving on replacement costs and future sale of the boat is not a concern.

That is exactly where my parents were with Seminole before I bought her last year. I'm happy with how much I paid but the price reflects how much I'm spending mending and upgrading equipment.

 

[Toutvabien]

Does it not also depend upon the quality of the basic structure that you are working with? We have a very old boat, 1980 Oyster Mariner, that we have now refitted with new engine, re-spray, new rigging, new canvas, fridge, cooker etc etc only the hull and masts are really left of the original boat. My logic is that we really like the way the boat works for us and to get a new boat of similar quality would cost quite a lot more than we have spent, (although we have spent quite a lot). I fully accept that this is probably an emotional response to the issue, rather than one based entirely on the economic cost, but it works for us. The plan is influenced by the objective of moving back aboard soonish and shoving orf!

 

[vyv_cox]

I think the truth is that no boat can be economically justified. Our motor-sailer Cecilia is 45 years old, bought largely for the pleasure of turning a seriously abused old boat back into something a lot more like she should be. I recently took Cecilia from Port Dinorwic to Pwllheli marina. The trip took about 8 hours under engine but would have been more like 12 hours under sail, used about 20 litres of diesel. I could have driven it in half an hour, using 2-3 litres of diesel. Once there I have paid the outrageous sum of £2500 for occupation of a small area of water for 12 month's berthing. I guess that roughly speaking she represents a cost the same as the car. I like driving the car but this in no way compares with the pleasure of being on the water.

 

[adwuk]

I think the truth is that no boat can be economically justified.

I totally agree. If you are trying to justify sailing on economic grounds you have it very wrong. Get something that makes you want to go sailing and then you will find it a great deal easier to pay the bills. New or old, it will cost more or less the same either through upgrades or depreciation.

 

[Momac]

A boat becomes uneconomical when it sits in a marina all year and is not used

 

[vyv_cox]

A boat becomes uneconomical when it sits in a marina all year and is not used

I think a lot of owners who party on board, either for pleasure or business purposes, might not agree. A weekend cottage in a posh area of the coast probably costs a lot more than many boats do.

 

[KellysEye]

>Certain items subject to wear and tear like sails and cordage will certainly have been renewed but then these items will have, say, a 4 or 5 year cycle. Even the engine ( subject to hours run) will probably need replacing after 10 years ( though our trusty 4108 is the original)

We sailed over 10,000nms in six and a half years and we didn't need to replace any of those, if you are happy sailing the boat and the costs are mangeable I would stick with it. Perkins engines are well built and don't have a limited life so keep servicing it and it will run forever. The only issue we had with a Volvo MD17C was it was burning too much oil so we had the piston and rings replaced.

 

[KellysEye]

>I think a lot of owners who party on board, either for pleasure or business purposes, might not agree. A weekend cottage in a posh area of the coast probably costs a lot more than many boats do.

You are right a survey of 10,000 boats in the Solent years ago found that 98% of them never move and are holiday homes.

 

[JumbleDuck]

A boat becomes uneconomical when it sits in a marina all year and is not used

I think a lot of owners who party on board, either for pleasure or business purposes, might not agree. A weekend cottage in a posh area of the coast probably costs a lot more than many boats do.

That, I think, would count as being used. There are more ways to use a boat than to sail it. Many people get enormous pleasure from working on their boats; that's another perfectly valid sort of use.

 

[Topcat47]

the day you buy it

He He! You got there before me.

Boats are not an investment, they are an odd mixture of "white good" and bloody liability; a bit like a pet. You buy one 'cos you want one and pay what it costs to run until you get fed up with it which is when you start asking questions like this.....

 

[[70521]]

So apart from styles changing, layout etc. ( for better or worse) it makes little economic sense to me to spend loads of dosh on the newest boat I can find. I wonder if anyone shares my view?

For me the sums are simple - new basic plastic bath look alike - you know the ones where the plastic moves, c£150,000 on the water, expected expenditure on keeping my 30 year old boat in tip top condition until I get to old to sail £50,000.

An example http://www.ancasta.com/boats-for-sale/new-boats/beneteau-sail/oceanis/351/

 

[Kelpie]

It's uneconomic when you would be cheaper buying a boat in good nick than doing work on a boat in poor nick.

Need to note, though, that people have different budgets and needs. I know some people who won't launch in the spring if they haven't polished the hull yet (I do not fall into that camp). Some people will put up with old intruments, upholstey, etc, without complaint.

As to budget, I saw a figure of £500 upthread for hoist and AF. Or you can dry out between tides and do it for the cost of the tin of paint (about a tenth of that figure).

 

[Tranona]

It's uneconomic when you would be cheaper buying a boat in good nick than doing work on a boat in poor nick.

Need to note, though, that people have different budgets and needs. I know some people who won't launch in the spring if they haven't polished the hull yet (I do not fall into that camp). Some people will put up with old intruments, upholstey, etc, without complaint.

As to budget, I saw a figure of £500 upthread for hoist and AF. Or you can dry out between tides and do it for the cost of the tin of paint (about a tenth of that figure).

Very valid points. Much of the expenditure on older boats is discretionary - the boat will still function with tatty upholstery, baggy sails, old instruments, faded topsides etc etc - and many are used in this way. However the problem comes when everything is in that sort of state and the owner is faced with expenditure that exceeds the depressed value of the boat and nobody wants to buy it. Hence the yards and clubs full of essentially worthless boats.

The £500 I quoted is on the low side for South Coast. You have to consider the circumstances you face when making this sort of decision. My solution was Coppercoat from new and one lift and wash at the club is £70, and more importantly no effort required from me.

All this, and the posts so far illustrate the point I made at the beginning - the important equation is your annual expenditure against the value you get from the boat - plus, of course the imponderable of the opportunity cost - what else would you do with the money (including the present capital value) that would give you greater perceived value.

 

[NormanS]

Very valid points. Much of the expenditure on older boats is discretionary - the boat will still function with tatty upholstery, baggy sails, old instruments, faded topsides etc etc - and many are used in this way. However the problem comes when everything is in that sort of state and the owner is faced with expenditure that exceeds the depressed value of the boat and nobody wants to buy it. Hence the yards and clubs full of essentially worthless boats.

The £500 I quoted is on the low side for South Coast. You have to consider the circumstances you face when making this sort of decision. My solution was Coppercoat from new and one lift and wash at the club is £70, and more importantly no effort required from me.

All this, and the posts so far illustrate the point I made at the beginning - the important equation is your annual expenditure against the value you get from the boat - plus, of course the imponderable of the opportunity cost - what else would you do with the money (including the present capital value) that would give you greater perceived value.

If you get a lift and wash for £70, how was it going to cost £500 to antifoul it?