When do you give way

T

TonyS

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I was in the Solent on thursday tacking up to the Newtown river. We had passed the Bramble on a long starboard tack and found we were on a collision course with Leopard who was on a long port tack coming from Cowes. The wind was 13 kts from SW and we were doing 6kts and he probably 12. When she was about 200 yds away(and I was seriously thinking we had to do an emergency tack) they tacked, went on ahead and then tacked again and came back on a reach to pass us by 50 yds. As they passed I gave a friendly wave and the whole crew of Leopard (20+) except the helmsman waved back. I got the impression that the helmsman had been saying to his crew that fu.k.r is going to make me tack! Should one defer to size when there is no race involved?

<hr width=100% size=1>Tony
 
NO.

There is a stand on vessel and outside of taking emergency action he should remain the stand on vessel. Otherwise the whole Colregs governance descends into anarchy.

Are you old enough to remember the days when there were no priorities at roundabouts? Chaos reigned and with today's attitudes and general selfishness they would be dangerous places.

If you can't rely upon a boat on port keeping out of your way on starboard and it comes down to size how on earth can you proceed with any sense of confidence without the means to measure at a distance and by the very nature of sailing, at some very deceptive angles.

Stand on but remember that it is everyone's duty to avoid collision, EVEN THOSE RACING. Besides, by being predictable in your actions you are contributing to the general safety.

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion
 
Unless incommoded

Unless it seriously mucked me up, as a non-racing yacht, I would allow a port tack racer to pass, either by tacking myself, or by bearing away and waving him on - and making sure that he had seen the signal. But do it in good time, don't wait until her crew have come off the rail and reached for the winch handles.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>
 
Re: Unless incommoded

Hear Hear Ken,

Thats being gentlemanly....and in my experience, you nearly always get a grateful acknowledgement of your courtesy....

But otherwise, I agree..... the rules are the rule, and they are there to be obeyed in all our interests, so make the buggers tack...

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They had to gybe the asymetric for me a little further west, I thought it was good practice for them as their race results could be better!

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Absolutely agree....

and besides, if you give way to one yacht in a race then unless every other yacht encountered by each and every other member of the racing fleet gets preceedence in the same way, your bloke has been given an unfair advantage. What's wrong with these people, expecting the rest of us to keep out of their way? Is their seamanship so poor that they cannot race in the normal world and deal with a stand-on yacht as a normal obstacle with sufficient skill?

To my mind clearing hazards out of the way of these people serves nobody's cause, especially theirs. This is why I have NEVER given way against the ColRegs to a racing boat, nor will I ever do so.

To expect this is directly parallel to clearing your line to the ball on a golf course and I can't see the R&A condoning that in any way at all!

Perhaps, to take that analogy further, yachts which require others to afford them artificial precedence or shout "We're racing" should be made to "drop a shot" by being penalised a minute by the race officials?

I cannot see a problem with dinghy racing on enclosed waters under the sole control of a sailing club where there is a protocol that members just messing about (cruising) give way to others racing and indentify themselves by a square as opposed to a triangular burgee but on the open public waters of the Solent? No way.

It was the practice a few years ago, however and might still be so to this day, that one could expect to be brought up in front of one's yacht club's flag officers if it was reported that "a yacht flying the burgee of this club has been reported as failing to give way to a fellow yachtsman from Royal Pompous Yacht Club who was clearly racing off Gurnard last saturday"

I hope that we live in more enlightened times these days.

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion
 
Re: Absolutely agree....

I'm with TK on this, and if stand-on boat will give way to racing boat(s) if I can on the basis that I'm never in that much of a hurry and I enjoy seeing them out racing. Will make my intentions clear early as poss. If, for some reason, I couldn't give way then I would expect them to take the appropriate action - it's got nothing to do with seamanship, just a simple courtesy which I know is appreciated.

Each to his own, but I suspect my blood pressure is lower than some around here/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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Re: Absolutely agree....

Not sure you should generalise like that, I might take it personally!

When I'm racing I would never expect a non-racing boat to do anything other than that required by colregs. I suspect that's true for all competent racers. Those that have risen up through dinghies will probably have consideraby better boat handling skills (and particularly in judging close quarter risks) than those who have not.

Do bear in mind that I will dip a starboard tacker's transom, aiming to lose as little as possible, clearing by not much. You'll know I'm doing it because I'll be aiming just behind you for the last 50 metres or so.

The only thing I would hope is that a non-racer would stay clearish of anything that might be a mark if it's looking congested.

When I'm not racing I do try to avoid giving dirty air to those who are, and would always be sympathetic to anyone running with spinnakers or poled out foresails, racing or not.

Can't speak for the less experienced though - recommend that you avoid tail enders.

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This post seems to have changed into "do you give way to yachts which are racing" and is producing some disturbing answers.

Having been "brought up" in the club arena (even though the first was just a cruising association), I learned that it was a courtesy to yachts racing to try and keep clear and when prudent to do so, give them room even if I was the "stand-on" vessel. Having then gone on to do some club racing, I have always appreciated this courtesy when offered.

In spite of the stress that can be caused by applying this courtesy when trying to cross the path of several Cowes Week racing classes, it is something I still try to do, unless the situation no longer makes it prudent or a particular racing yacht is obviously pushing his luck too far.

It seems we now have a generation of cruising sailors who do not apply this unwritten "rule", perhaps they are those who don't belong to a yacht/sailing club and thus don't gain from others' experience?

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Re: If you think tactically

and if you sail in the summer Solent you'd better think tactically, it's not a problem.

If your cruising you need to stand on, if yours is the right, if you don't understand what the racing blokes are doing.

So there's the problem. Many cruising sailors are mystifyed and unable to work out what the racers are doing cos they've not done any of that racing stuff.

So while I'd reckon to look at a race boat and know what he wanted of me by the way the boat and crew are set up, it's not so easy for a lot of cruisers. So it's better if they stick with the ColRegs.

If your racing you make your allowances early. What you don't want is somebody "going bush " on you. You can't predict what they're going to do if they step outside of the rules.

So if I'm slinging something big and fast at the startline and you bumble up in your Centaur. Be predictable if nothing else.


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So Milord,

we plebs in our cruising boats are a bit "in the way" when sailing in that reserve of the racing fraternity The Solent, eh?

Now that you've pointed out that cruising is inferior to racing, I'm sure we'll all benefit from the knowledge.

"So while I'd reckon to look at a race boat and know what he wanted of me by the way the boat and crew are set up, it's not so easy for a lot of cruisers. So it's better if they stick with the ColRegs."

You can sniff 'em out can you? Bit different surely now that water bailiffs aren't around to warn the peasants that " His Royal Highness and Sir Tommy won't give way to the likes of you my lad!" isn't it? Latter sentence is sound advice to us all!

"What you don't want is somebody "going bush "" Now is this an expression that one who maybe hasn't had the privelidge of an ex-colonial background might not understand? Or are you perhaps alluding to someone behaving in the ways currently attributed to the current US President (ie saying one thing and doing another)?

"...slinging SOMETHING BIG AND FAST* the startline and you BUMBLE UP** in your Centaur."

*Is it yours?

Is it paid for
and are you suggesting that size IS a factor in priority?

and "slinging" it! WOW now there's an OLD MONEY attitude if ever I heard one!

** BH!! this is getting a bit arrogant isn't it? & anyway plebs don't buy Centaurs anymore. They won't tollerate the upkeep. You're much more likely to see "Royal" Yacht Club Rear Commodores in them. Plebs buy Legends.

most informative Sir.

Thankin' you.

Serf Steve Cronin


<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion
 
Re: So Milord,

Hey Steve, slow down. That was a carfully crafted answer and not deserving of your wroth. The real answer to cruising/racing give way scenarios is that if you are the stand on boat but cruising, and intend to give way, as courtesy dictates, do it early so there is no confusion. However, if the stand on vessel maintains its course, the give way vessel, racing or not, does as he should. End of story.

<hr width=100% size=1>I never make the same mistake twice. I always make new ones.
 
Re: So Milord,

That isn't everyone's experience. Not all racing folk are nice people and often they yell such things as "Can't you see that we're racing?" intimating that they have some right of way. i've even been in a racing crew where the skipper has told the helmsman to stand on because "...the bugger will soon realise that we're racing".

I believe that the courtesy is a gift not a right. Even then it often goes wrong when a boat alters course away from a racing boat onto another passage making (cruising sounds like pottering) vessel not expecting. IMO racing should NOT take precedence over other craft lawfully making their way and probably too short handed to react as quickly as a fully crewed round the cans flier.

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion
 
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