When did Navionics first include Admiralty/UKHO tidal data?

[tillergirl]

Ah. Tide stream data not tide table data so we wasn't thinking about the right thing. I always used the term 'Tide Diamonds' but I just looked up the UKHO technical term - "Tide stream data position". Not that anything about that is relevant.

But I reckon the answer to your question about TSDPs is 'probably most from the UKHO from the time Navionics started'. I have a small library of old charts, pilot books etc so you can get an idea of where the data goes from. For example in the Thames Estuary the position of many of the tidal diamonds coincide where Trinity House used to have Lightships. So I reckon we can guess where that data was collected. Other positions must have been subject to specific research many, many years ago. But not all diamonds on an Admiralty chart are sourced by the UKHO. I queried data in a diamond in the English Channel and the UKHO responded saying the data originated from the French. The UKHO passed on the query to the French but I got no reply. I also had an email conversation with the UKHO about tidal stream data: I asked whether there was data for a particular location where currently there was no diamond. I won't bore you with the reason for the question but the answer was ' there is no data for that area'. It was obvious that no funding could be available to answer the question.

There are sources of other tidal stream data. For the past year, work has been undertaken to collect data for preparation for the New Nuclear Power Station on the Dengie Penisula, the Port of London Authority has oudles of data about the Thames and the Estuary and we can be sure the Wind Farm peeps collected data. I understand that the UKHO 'hope' that such data is shared with them. The PLA certainly do that. But 'other sources' will only be very localised and I think it is only the National Authorities that Navionics could practically approach. There is certainly no evidence of 'non-UKHO' TSDPs in Navionics for the area of the Thames Estuary that I can see.

 

[Sandbank]

Ah. Tide stream data not tide table data so we wasn't thinking about the right thing. I always used the term 'Tide Diamonds' but I just looked up the UKHO technical term - "Tide stream data position". Not that anything about that is relevant.

But I reckon the answer to your question about TSDPs is 'probably most from the UKHO from the time Navionics started'. I have a small library of old charts, pilot books etc so you can get an idea of where the data goes from. For example in the Thames Estuary the position of many of the tidal diamonds coincide where Trinity House used to have Lightships. So I reckon we can guess where that data was collected. Other positions must have been subject to specific research many, many years ago. But not all diamonds on an Admiralty chart are sourced by the UKHO. I queried data in a diamond in the English Channel and the UKHO responded saying the data originated from the French. The UKHO passed on the query to the French but I got no reply. I also had an email conversation with the UKHO about tidal stream data: I asked whether there was data for a particular location where currently there was no diamond. I won't bore you with the reason for the question but the answer was ' there is no data for that area'. It was obvious that no funding could be available to answer the question.

There are sources of other tidal stream data. For the past year, work has been undertaken to collect data for preparation for the New Nuclear Power Station on the Dengie Penisula, the Port of London Authority has oudles of data about the Thames and the Estuary and we can be sure the Wind Farm peeps collected data. I understand that the UKHO 'hope' that such data is shared with them. The PLA certainly do that. But 'other sources' will only be very localised and I think it is only the National Authorities that Navionics could practically approach. There is certainly no evidence of 'non-UKHO' TSDPs in Navionics for the area of the Thames Estuary that I can see.

Thanks. Before you responded I found out that the Tidal Streams data in Navionics' products came the face of Admiralty Charts and my focus is now on the tidal predictions in the form of heights and times of High and Low Water in UK waters. Does anyone know when that data was inroduced into Navionics' products?

 

[dunedin]

Thanks. Before you responded I found out that the Tidal Streams data in Navionics' products came the face of Admiralty Charts and my focus is now on the tidal predictions in the form of heights and times of High and Low Water in UK waters. Does anyone know when that data was inroduced into Navionics' products?

You seem to be going round in circles. Regarding Tidal Height information, this has been in Navionics for many years. BUT as has been stated above a number of times, there are various ways of calculating this and as far as I and others know, Navionics does not use UKHO calculations for this.
For example my Navionics shows HW Oban today as 15:03 and 3.3m, whereas an app I believe does use UKHO says 14:59 and 3.4m. Not hugely different for today at Oban, but can be much more on certain days at other locations.

So what is your question
(a) When did Navionics start including tidal height data in any form? (Who knows, but a long time ago)
(b) When, if ever, did Navionics start using UKHO tidal height data? (Not certain, but most seem to think they do not)

 

[Bru]

I'm mystified as to why the OP has asked the question but for what it's worth there seems to be some confusion reigning

Navionics has certainly included tidal height predictions since i started using it in 2011 and whilst the tidal stations correspond to the UKHO tidal stations, the predictions do not

Navionics are clearly not using UKHO predictions. Nor for that matter do many other sources as the detailed predictions for the tides on a particular day can vary, sometimes significantly, across sources e.g Navionics, Easytide, published tide tables and various apps which include tidal predictions

However, since there are to the best of my knowledge only two databases of tidal harmonics covering the whole of the UK and of those only the UKHO database is at all comprehensive, i would hazard that most of the available tidal predictions are calculated from the UKHO harmonics

The variation will be differences in the calculation method and parameters

The Absolute Tides app, which i use, definitely uses UKHO data but it's predictions are not identical to Admiralty Easytide nor again to Navionics

 

[Sandbank]

You seem to be going round in circles. Regarding Tidal Height information, this has been in Navionics for many years. BUT as has been stated above a number of times, there are various ways of calculating this and as far as I and others know, Navionics does not use UKHO calculations for this.
For example my Navionics shows HW Oban today as 15:03 and 3.3m, whereas an app I believe does use UKHO says 14:59 and 3.4m. Not hugely different for today at Oban, but can be much more on certain days at other locations.

So what is your question
(a) When did Navionics start including tidal height data in any form? (Who knows, but a long time ago)
(b) When, if ever, did Navionics start using UKHO tidal height data? (Not certain, but most seem to think they do not)

Perhaps I should re-phrase my question to when were tidal predictions introduced into Navionics products in respect of UK waters (and regardless of whether people think it's UKHO data).
The prediction you quote appears to come from the short-term predictions available from the UKHO's "Easytide", which uses more than just the Simplified Constants that are published in the Admiralty Tide Tables (an alternative UKHO source) - and the data in the latter publication can be further tweaked by other tidal adjustments that are available. The issue therefore goes a bit deeper than matching identical data - hence my simple question as to 'when' in the first place. I can do the rest myself

 

[tillergirl]

Frankly I am confused. Are you talking about predictions at standard ports , secondary ports or tidal stream predictions or what. It might help if you explain the relevance as to when Navionics introduced 'tidal predictions' and which predictions you mean.

 

[Sandbank]

Frankly I am confused. Are you talking about predictions at standard ports , secondary ports or tidal stream predictions or what. It might help if you explain the relevance as to when Navionics introduced 'tidal predictions' and which predictions you mean.

Please refer to my message time-stamped at 13:11 yesterday - I am now only interested to know when times and heights of high and low tides in UK waters were included, and regardless as to whether that data refers Standard and/or Secondary Ports and regardless of where people think that data was sourced.

 

[Mark-1]

Perhaps I should re-phrase my question to when were tidal predictions introduced into Navionics products in respect of UK waters (and regardless of whether people think it's UKHO data).
The prediction you quote appears to come from the short-term predictions available from the UKHO's "Easytide", which uses more than just the Simplified Constants that are published in the Admiralty Tide Tables (an alternative UKHO source) - and the data in the latter publication can be further tweaked by other tidal adjustments that are available. The issue therefore goes a bit deeper than matching identical data - hence my simple question as to 'when' in the first place. I can do the rest myself

Navionics products? Navionics have a mobile app, they used to make plotters. They sell chart data standalone. They've been trading since 1984 and I'm pretty sure they were an offshoot of an existing company. (Two brothers fell out and split the firm into two forming Navionics and CMAP. Or something like that.)

So are you asking what date did Navionics first sell chart data that included tide data or are you asking what date did Navionics first sell a product or SW engineered by them that included tide data. Or something else?

TBH, whatever you want to know I'd be tempted to find a way to contact the original owner, Giuseppe Carnevali on social media or similar. That sounds mad but he sold the firm a few years back and from what I hear about him he would love to talk about the history of his company. Hard to imagine anyone else with knowledge of the firm going back 40 years.

Unless someone remembers the 1985 product lineup in detail nobody on a forum will be able to tell you the first time Navionics sold tide data.

 

[Sandbank]

Navionics products? Navionics have a mobile app, they used to make plotters. They sell chart data standalone. They've been trading since 1984 and I'm pretty sure they were an offshoot of an existing company. (Two brothers fell out and splitnanfirm into two forming Navionics and CMAP. Or something like that.)

So are you asking what date did Navionics first sell chart data that included tide data or are you asking what date did Navionics first sell a product or SW engineered by them that included tide data. Or something else?

TBH, whatever you want to know I'd be tempted to find a way to contact the original owner, Giuseppe Carnevali on social media or similar. That sounds mad but he sold the firm a few years back and from what I hear about him he would love to talk about the history of his company. Hard to imagine anyone else with knowledge of the firm going back 40 years.

Unless someone remembers the 1985 product lineup in detail nobody on a forum will be able to tell you the first time Navionics sold tide data.

I know the history of Navionics and what products they sell and have sold. I merely wanted to know if anyone knows when they first included tidal heights and times (HW & LW) of locations in UK waters in any of their products. If anyone know of a version of any of their products containing such data before July of last year I would be grateful. It's as simple as that.

 

[Mark-1]

I know the history of Navionics and what products they sell and have sold. I merely wanted to know if anyone knows when they first included tidal heights and times (HW & LW) of locations in UK waters in any of their products. If anyone know of a version of any of their products containing such data before July of last year I would be grateful. It's as simple as that.

Before July 2019?

Well, I have an old phone with a ~2015 Navionics Mobile App (V4.3) and that does.

I'm not sure how that helps you identify the first.

 

[Sandbank]

Before July 2019?

Well, I have and old phone with the 2015 Navionics Mobile App V4.3 and that does.

I'm not sure how that helps you identify the first.

Excellent. Can you list a dozen of the tidal locations in the Bristol Channel that can be found within the App, please? There's no need to post the data that pertain to them.

 

[dunedin]

Excellent. Can you list a dozen of the tidal locations in the Bristol Channel that can be found within the App, please? There's no need to post the data that pertain to them.

So for clarity, are you in some form of legal dispute with Navionics, or a supplier of a competitive product or something?

Getting more and more bizarre

 

[Bru]

So for clarity, are you in some form of legal dispute with Navionics, or a supplier of a competitive product or something?

Getting more and more bizarre

Indeed, the OPs refusal to clarify why he wants this information and the increasingly specific nature of the question is arousing my suspicions too

 

[tillergirl]

Indeed, the OPs refusal to clarify why he wants this information and the increasingly specific nature of the question is arousing my suspicions too

Absolutely.

 

[Bilgediver]

I know the history of Navionics and what products they sell and have sold. I merely wanted to know if anyone knows when they first included tidal heights and times (HW & LW) of locations in UK waters in any of their products. If anyone know of a version of any of their products containing such data before July of last year I would be grateful. It's as simple as that.

I have been using Navionics for scheduling regatta events and club racing since around 1996 and using the included tide tables most of that time. Navionices does not just show tidal heights when you go to the tidal marks but will also display the tidal curve for the day and allow you to move the cursor to any point to see the height at that time. It is remarkably accurate compared to actuals and the UKHO tidal figures . Our local yacht club pays for tidal information and this gives the heights to I think it is 10 minute resolution. You run the curves on a PC and then do a search giving date and time.

What no one here has mentioned is that Navionics do have one other source for data. If you switch you App or plotter to Sonarcharts then another set of curves appear in much more detail. These curves are the results of data obtained by Navionics from the instruments on board vessels when updates are being done. Apparently data is both downloaded and uploaded. You will note this data is very detailed adjacent to marinas and at yotties points of interest. It is so detailed that it shows up anomalies that might have formed sub sea due to erosion etc and was a help to us some years ago when trying to understand buoy mooring problems at a certain location in the The Forth. It identified a gully in the mud that the charted contours did not.

 

[Sgeir]

Hi - but are you comparing Navionics' tidal data with Admiralty Tide Tables, Easy Tide or Admiralty Total Tide?

I quoted Easytide. I have never purchased Admiralty tide tables, but I do use what I assume to be UKHO tables as published by the CA and Reeds almanacs.

While Easytide and the tables can vary by a minute, possibly more but I've never noticed that, both are often significantly different from Navionics in terms of times and tidal heights. Which reinforces my view that Navionics do not use UKHO data.

 

[Sandbank]

I quoted Easytide. I have never purchased Admiralty tide tables, but I do use what I assume to be UKHO tables as published by the CA and Reeds almanacs.

While Easytide and the tables can vary by a minute, possibly more but I've never noticed that, both are often significantly different from Navionics in terms of times and tidal heights. Which reinforces my view that Navionics do not use UKHO data.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Sandbank]

Absolutely.

Indeed, the OPs refusal to clarify why he wants this information and the increasingly specific nature of the question is arousing my suspicions too

I'm mystified as to why the OP has asked the question but for what it's worth there seems to be some confusion reigning

Navionics has certainly included tidal height predictions since i started using it in 2011 and whilst the tidal stations correspond to the UKHO tidal stations, the predictions do not

Navionics are clearly not using UKHO predictions. Nor for that matter do many other sources as the detailed predictions for the tides on a particular day can vary, sometimes significantly, across sources e.g Navionics, Easytide, published tide tables and various apps which include tidal predictions

However, since there are to the best of my knowledge only two databases of tidal harmonics covering the whole of the UK and of those only the UKHO database is at all comprehensive, i would hazard that most of the available tidal predictions are calculated from the UKHO harmonics

The variation will be differences in the calculation method and parameters

The Absolute Tides app, which i use, definitely uses UKHO data but it's predictions are not identical to Admiralty Easytide nor again to Navionics

That's great. Thanks

 

[Bru]

That's great. Thanks

Is it?

Still no explanation about the purpose of your query. My suspicions grow