Whats the maximum force wind I should be comfortable putting to sea with?

[jac]

Interesting replies, thanks all. My mate who comes with me on this boat has almost no experience of boating of any kind and he was fine to go to sea yesterday. It was my natural caution as an experienced motorboater that first raised questions as to whether we should go any further or not. There were lots of giveaway signs that it wasn't a good idea- white horses starting to appear on the wave crests, wind over tide starting to create ever deeper troughs at the entrance to Langstone, and the fact that hardly anyone else was out there. My mate even enjoyed heeling over to a degree, but I think this was out of blissful ignorance really. Reefing is something I can easily see how to do, and I just need to learn how best to react when a gust heels us over- turn into the wind or let the boom out a bit more?

In the ECA bar after we did suggest between us that maybe some lessons might be a good idea, but I don't feel I'm that far off getting the hang of it really. We're getting some of the basics wrong however as we keep jamming the sheets and halyards when using the winches, so somethings wrong there. I bought some good 'teach yourself sailing' type books at Beaulieu in April. Maybe it's time to start reading them in depth.

Re Gusts.

Not sure how your boat is set up so bear with me!

The usual way of dealing with gusts is to ease the mainsail down the traveller if you have one. failing that, ease the mainsheet. In a big gust you may need to do both, potentially very quickly as when the boat heel too much, the rudder will lose grip and the boat will turn uncontrollably into the wind. Known as broaching ( or usually f**king broaching.)

With a decent trimmer, the helm and trimmer can work together to keep the boat going, pulling in as the wind dies a bit, easing again as the boat heels over and the rudder starts to need a lot of effort to keep the boat going straight . ( Weather helm) At some stage though, the whole sail will be flogging as it is let out so far. This will destroy a sail pretty quickly if you leave it so at that point you really do need to reef.

For just pottering around the harbour / cruising, the rule of thumb is to ref for the gusts. In other words, reduce the sail so much so that the gusts don't make you broach / ease sheets. If you were racing, you would set sail area appropriate for the lulls and then ease the sheets / traveller during the gusts but that is much more work so only worth it on a short sail or with the lads or if racing.

 

[Binman]

Many years ago, I was crewing in a Dragon sailing boat, heeled right over, water not far of the deck, speeding along great feeling.

 

[Rikds]

Get somebody on board who knows what they are doing, swallow pride and accept a lesson or two. The rate of progress (and safety) will astound you. Messing around thinking you know the basics will just get you into trouble. Sorry to be a bore but I speak from experience, lots of it!

 

[William_H]

Regarding sailing to windward in strong winds it is a bit tricky turning into the wind to reduce heel. You can do this to a small degree but you risk backing the jib and putting the boat about when you did not want to do so. So only slight or limited "luffing" as it is called but mostly ease the main sheet and traveller but keep jib tight and working correctly.
Regarding your mate and heeling. Give him control of the main sheet. If he feels in control of the amount of heel he will soon be happy to drive it hard heeled. Not that that is such a good idea. A reef is far better to give better speed pointing and control.
If you find you are enjoying a downwind brisk sail bewarte when you turn around to sail back up wind it will be much worse. Stronger apparent wind. So if you have a choice for a pleasure sail always sail up wind first.
My advice is to get a deep reef set up so you can pull it in from the cockpit. ie 2 line reefing one for clew one for tack. (front and back). If necessary cut off some luff slugs so that you can reef the main down without problems with the slugs. (sliders).
One last thought from your comments. Tangles on winches. Known as an over ride. Where the turns of rope do not lay flat from bottom to top is usually caused by the sheet or halyard arriving at the winch from a point above the bottom of the winch. The rope should arrive from 20 or more cms below the bottom of the winch to force its way on to the drum at the bottom pushing the other turns up.
good luck olewill

 

[FulmarJeddo]

I really don't like the way the boat heels such a long way over though. She's light and fast and I just wonder if a heavier, slower cruiser would be better for me? Dunno, I suspect I feel this way due to not being used to being heeled over in a boat.

I think you will have to get use to the heeling. The Trapper TS240 is as you say light and fast. Although I have never sailed one, I know someone at our club with one. It is very fast in light conditions, but when the wind picks up you will need to reef earlier than heavier boats. In light conditions the Trapper out performs my Westerly Fulmar, but in heavier conditions I leave him standing.

As others have said, get use to her in light conditions and when it is a bit windier reduce sail early.

Another thing to bare in mind, sail condition can play a big part in how a boat performs. An old baggy sail will cause the boat to heel a lot more than a new crisp sail. In stronger conditions you need to get the sails as flat as possible to de power them.

 

[johnalison]

Winches are one of the things on a boat that can do you a lot of damage, along with the boom of course, so learning to use them safely should be a priority. The force on a jib or genoa sheet in a blow can be incredibly high. My usual routine is to have two turns on the winch when hailing in and then taking an extra turn quickly before engaging the self-tailer. Without a self-tailer, you will need three turns to take the load. In a small boat, this means that you will be using one hand to hold the tail and one for the winch-handle, leaving no hand for yourself, so great care needs to be used when it is rough. When easing sheets I normally hold the tail in my left hand and put my right palm over the coils on the drum with my fingers well clear, to stop the coils getting too loose with the possibility of a riding turn. I do this in all weathers but would recommend practice in light weather.

 

[ex-Gladys]

One point that hasn't been mentioned is that it isnt just a matter of windforce... 20 knots of wind in an offshore or wind with tide will be a differnet story from 20knots wind over tide.... You may consider that 15 knots is enough in wind over tide conditions...

 

[ostell]

Since you are new to sailing are you doing what friends used to do and pulling in the sheets tight? This gets you nothing other than heeling over.

Those friends of mine used to complain about being uncomfortably heeled over but not getting anywhere fast. On one trip out with me I showed them how to set the sails to match the wind and after the next sail on their own they came back delighted that they were now going faster and with not so much heeling over.

 

[[159032]]

The last few replies certainly get to the nub of things.
I also re-learned sailing in the past few years and whilst my boats have been a bit smaller than your Trapper I agree with the advice you have been given.

-Don't bother trying to luff up in gusts. It stops you dead in smaller yachts and usually results in more extreme heel as you approach the head-to wind position.

-Do play the main-sheet or traveler instead. It really stabilises the boat.

-Do get a baggy sail replaced or modified. Baggy sails just don't respond to your input.

-On a day with a steady strongish breeze (but reasonably calm sea) sail the boat hard and tight and see just how safe it feels once you have the boat heeled. Yes, it may not be efficient or fast, but it's great fun.

-Learn to watch for gusts and prepare for them. If they are fairly brief I tend to just keep going and pull the tiller a bit harder. Some yachts I see don't seem to be able to do that and round-up into the wind. You need to know if your boat is one of those.

The mention of Dragons with side-decks awash is great, but they are typical keel boats which are happy being sailed like that.

But the main lesson is that if you feel nervous sailing hard, don't do it. Reefed down your boat will feel solid and stable, probably be as quick (but won't feel it )

 

[gasdave]

There's a lot of great advice about sail control and trimming here which I will not repeat.

But just as important and perhaps more so is your own approach to sailing. Sounds as though you are "game" and not too easily frightened but you do have a knowledge of and respect for the sea and conditions. From my own experience I would say get used to your boat. She will out-sail you every time and so long as you follow the advice here and in a few well chosen "how to" type books about the technicalities of boat control you will be amazed at what she will do. Until I learnt how to reef appropriately for the conditions I spent a fair bit of time heeled over at what felt like silly angles with sea over the side decks. When I realised I was not going to capsize I could relax and enjoy it. Now I have an inclinometer I realise the angle of heel was probably no more than about 35 degrees!

However it wasn't the most efficient way to sail my boat - speed drops as wetted area changes and rudder angle, to compensate for rounding up into the wind, acts as a brake. Reducing sail area brings her more upright, life is more comfortable and speed is the same or greater. I use the inclinometer and plan reefs to keep her at less than 15 degrees most of the time - this allows for a bit more with the occasional gust which I know will be OK. Your rig, including steering system, is probably also a lot less stressed. Conditions which would have put me off going out previously are now not so daunting and I'm comfortable venturing out in F6/7. If it were to get worse while I was out I would feel anxious but have a strategy. Most of all I know my boat will manage as long as I allow her to.

So don't be afraid of heeling but learn how to reduce it. Learn how to reef, do it early and don't hurry to "unreef". Grow your confidence in conditions you and your crew are comfortable in and prepare through reading, observing and chatting. F4/5 will provide decent conditions to start with provided the sea state is OK as well. The point about the apparent wind, in which you sail, is important.

 

[charles_reed]

It has to be a personal decision, stemming from confidence and experience.
Forecasts tend to overestimate wind speeds.

Though I've been sailing, in a variety of boats since 1972, usually single-handed, here in the Med I'd not set out on a passage with forecast winds foul F4 and off wind F5.
This has more to do with the type of waves you get in the Med, rather than simply wind force.

Windward, a small tall sail, with a restricted slot will give you the best tacking angle, reserve your big genoas for reaching and downwind.

However if you're just going out for pleasure it is possibly worth trying - the very fact you're asking the question suggests your doubts. If you have crew DON'T go. You might be OK but they will probably be put off sailing.

 

[fergie_mac66]

havent read all thread but it cannot hurt to reiterate if someone has not said it already .If the wind is lively and likely to increase for a while far better to reef before you go out , if the wind is less than you thought its easier to shake a reef out , than put one in if the wind is stronger than you thought and the waves start coming over the bow !

 

[TSB240]

Hi

I have had some experience of sailing a TS 240!

They are indeed a powerful small sailing boat as based on a 1/4 tonner Ed Dubois Starflash hull.

They are highly responsive and handle more akin to a sailing dinghy than a Dragon. I cruised ours extensively with my wife and we were renowned for being out in winds that kept others on their moorings or marina bound.

The 3/4 rig is a easily depowered so reefing early is not usually required! (It is only required once you have exhausted all the usual techniques for depowering.)

If you are being over powered progressive use of : rig tension, out haul, kicker, cunningham and backstay allows you to flatten your main and reduce any luff sag.

Playing the traveller rather than the mainsheet is very effective in gusts.

We sailed in company with much larger boats in heavy conditions and still arrived in port either before them or with them! In light conditions we left them standing!

It is essential that your rig is set up properly to optimise your mast prebend in relation to your sail. If an old sail you might need a bit more prebend to prevent your sails stalling too early.

There is a useful guide for setting up the rig on the owners website.

In terms of wind strength we have experienced 42 knots but by then we were reduced to a tiny flap of jib and three reefs in the main and still made progress to windward

Off wind in stronger winds high twenties up we were happier to run on full genoa only and enjoy the ride over rather than through the water that the wide beam and flat stern allows!

Get the outboard out of the well as soon as you can and put the bung in you will be amazed how the boat feels so much better and you keep your feet dry!

The OB influences the feel on the helm and removing it allows the boat to point higher and go much faster! Also off wind when in surfing conditions you should see double figures on the log for long periods of time.

The biggest problem I ever had in those condtions was getting other helms off the tiller!