What's so good about traditional construction?

[oldfrank]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

Suggest you don't sister timbers (frames) - either replace with steamed timber or laminated replacements. Don't do too many laminated timbers in a row. Sistered timbers tend to act as an invitation to rot. Neither are particularly difficult but if you intend to replace on your own you'll need a friend - or very long arms. O.F.

 

[Boatmik]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

[ QUOTE ]
You are unlikley to have much joy with total epoxy encapsulation. When did you see a house with subsidence having Hi-tech plaster put on the walls?

Of course all of the above mediums last longer if maintained properly!

[/ QUOTE ]

And all can work well if the job is properly set up.

There are no good or bad methods within the normal mainstream, just people who do half baked jobs in all media! Including hi-tech bog on houses - I've never seen it done personally.

To do that you need to what adds strength to the structure.

Epoxy coating by itself is useless, but like with Curlew job ... it can prove very successful over decades (now) if the job is thought through correctly.

Best Wishes
Michael Storer

 

[Bajansailor]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

[ QUOTE ]
Because "Curlew" wasnt epoxy sheathed, she was sheathed with timber laminated and epoxied together, a different way of doing things, in effect cold moulding.
I have seen a double diangonal ex RNLI lifeboat, done the same way, in effect a new layer of planking, which works fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont want to start an argument with Colin, but surely Curlew was effectively epoxy sheathed in essentially the same fashion as using glass mat and epoxy to sheath a dried out hull?

As far as I can see, the only difference here was that wood was used instead of glass mat. If the final overall strength / stiffness / durability obtained is similar for the two methods, then the boat is not going to know really what particular method has given her a new lease of life (?).

Re Curlew, does anybody know if the 'old' hull interior was sheathed in epoxy resin as well as the 'new' timber on the outside?
If it was not, I am thinking that there must have been considerable forces in the structure when the old timber 'took up' again (eg bilge water) - or were her Owners very zealous about keeping her very dry down below and ensuring that the 'old' hull was not allowed to 'take up'?
(I'm just asking an innocent question here, I dont want to promote any slanging matches!)

 

[Maclean]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

I wish I'd asked you guys sooner. The debate certainly give food for thought and adds to the considerable number of strong opinions I'm getting locally.
I like two quotes particularly.

'-fix it, make it sea worthy again by any method and materials that will help and continue to sail it. After all it will probably out last you as it did the former owners.'

and

'-Like any construction method, the end product has a life span.'

These boats were lightly built for racing 80 plus years ago and this one has been through many changes in its lifetime, and has already clocked up many more sea miles than was ever intended. Someone 'improved' the accommodation by deck stepping the mast and installing steel girders to spread the load. I added a pole underneath to connect keel and mast which made a big difference. There are already enough sisters installed to start a convent so replacing frames would be important but one of the epoxy techniques I've been looking at involves routing out the seams to around 3/4 depth, and splining with epoxy. It is claimed that this makes much of the framing redundant. The mahogany planks started life at less than 1" thick and the sanding before painting over 80 years has removed a good layer or two. The seas around Scotland have this annoying habit of suddenly becoming mental and I like to think that not dying is quite important. Epoxy splines, epoxy laminate and impregnation outside and in, epoxy fillets on frames, solid marine ply deck with triangulated keel stepped rig - all sounds like a good way of improving survival chances in a blow. And I could make it all look nice and traditional up top.
Perhaps then I could concentrate on enjoying the sail rather than thinking about what's going to break next, or which plank is about to abandon it's 80 year old fastenings.

Then again, is it time to listen to this quote?
-'If you can't afford to do this work, then pass her on too someone who can.'

 

[ccscott49]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

I see your point, but just adding epoxy and glass sheathing, is not really adding a lot of strength, as the glass is not a thick layer as is the timber method. I believe curlew was dried out, splined and then sheathed with layers of wood, stapled on to the original planking, encapsulated in epoxy, dont remember if she was sheathed inside, the splines would stop any plank movement, as they do on my own vessel, which of course makes it very stiff and strong, more akin to a dug out canoe, than normal carvel construction.

There is of course the encapsulted cedar strip method of building, but again, it´s fully encapsulated timber, with no gaps in between strips and all glued together, then glassed over inside and out to provide more strength and an even, smooth surface. But againj, this is not what this gentleman was talking about in the first place.
He has since changed this view to splining, before encapsulating, this may well work. But "splining" with epoxy? He will use a shed load of expensive epoxy doing that, when glueing in wood splines would be cheaper and IMHO better.

he chap of course can repair it anyway he chooses, it´s his boat, but it will deteriorate and quickly, It´s just that I believe in doing a job properly, or not at all.
Again, no arguments with anybody. It is IMHO of course.

 

[ctelfer38]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

May I add to the many comments that have already been made. I am of the view that lots of the benefits and pleasures of owning a classic yacht are closely allied to how original it is. In my experience, whenever a classic is renovated/rescued in a way which 'spoils' it, there is always regret after the event. If you go the epoxy route, I suspect you will always find yourself wondering if you did the right thing. A number of other 1930's Baltic post WW11 'windfall' yachts which were sheathed ( in the 70/80's) in GRP to keep them going have almost all disappeared owing to the hull rot which developed behind the skin - making later restoration and rescue either much more troublesome or quite uneconomic. For your classic yacht, a restoration in keeping with the original build is undoubtedly the right way to go - whoever does it. I hope you can find a way to do that. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Castletine]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

I agree with everything Seagreen says apart from storing her in your backyard - you wont find much help there, far better you pay a bit more and store her in a yard as you'll save money from all the free advice and help you'll get.

I used to keep a 1931 pitch pine on oak afloat and over the years I learnt you can steam timber wih an old kettle feeding steam into a drainpipe closed at both ends. All sorts of things used to happen at the yard, some were succesful, some not, some were dangerous and others downright illegal, but all of them brought a smile to the face and a few of them became 'legends'

If she doesn't need a full refit, then don't do a full refit, just start where she needs strengthening and do it in small steps.

I always think that many boatbuilders of old would have loved to get their hands on some of the materials we have today, so if it works for the boat, retains an aesthetic appearance and keeps the rot out, then why not? there are plenty of original classics rotting at their moorings through no care being taken, so a judicious use of the modern stuff cannot hurt if applied properly.

 

[Boatmik]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

[ QUOTE ]
A number of other 1930's Baltic post WW11 'windfall' yachts which were sheathed ( in the 70/80's) in GRP to keep them going have almost all disappeared owing to the hull rot which developed behind the skin - making later restoration and rescue either much more troublesome or quite uneconomic.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point. Using conventional polyester resin and fibreglass is a flawed method. It was touted as a "cure-all" but failed exactly for the reasons you suggest.

The problem is that polyester doesn't really stick to wood very well. So you end up iwth it delaminating in areas exactly as you say and then trapping water behind the planking. Often that water is not salt - as it may come from the bilges.

All in all a woeful method.

Epoxy works quite differently - it is a good glue in its own right - so the bond between the glass and the hull is structural.

HOWEVER this has a risk too. The glass can stop the coming and going of the hull as it swells and dries which can lead to high structural loads that result in the glue joins failing.

HOWEVER (again!) if the whole hull is sealed with three coats of epoxy (including the inside) then the whole thing becomes very stable with not much moisture change in the structure.

The end result is lower loads and a surface that doesn't move around resulting in the paint and varnish lasting a lot longer too.

Jobs I have been involved with using this method are now getting up to three decades old - and some older still - perhaps the earliest are getting up to 50 years old.

But it is part of a considered method used carefully.

Back when polyester glass was considered the right thing I did a really nice job of glassing decks on one of the sailing club committee boats - fully painted all nice. After I had finished one of the club people came down and said it was a nice job.

He found a loose glass thread under the side deck and gave it a pull to get rid of it - it came round the corner and pulled up a couple of square feet of my deck!

I've never had anything similar happen with epoxy.
___________________________

HOWEVER (third time lucky) there was a waterlogged Dragon pulled out of Sydney harbour - opened up and sunk at its mooring. Was salvaged by the local waterway authority and sold at auction - only one bid for $200 (don't cry! Like me)

The owner put some pumps aboard and brought it round to the Cruising Yacht Club and lifted it onto a cradle. He left it to dry out while he decided what to do.

The problem with letting it dry out is that you can end up with lots of cracks.

Anyway he was lucky - the original cracks which made her sink opened up a bit more and a couple more opened up. He got the local shipwright to route out a tapered groove - narrower as it gets deeper into the hull - and glued in tapered splines (don't hammer too hard - they resemble wedges!!!). A day's work.

They planed them off the next day.

By this time they found that the crappy paint job had been applied over varnish - so they were able to strip the whole thing - no paint in the woodgrain - and repaint and varnish.

Boat was back in the water in a couple of weeks (of furious labour) but the main point was that the splining was trivial and quick. If they hadn't discovered the clear finish under the paint they would have just sanded and painted over the top for a minimum of labour.

So while I can vouch for the success of the epoxy method in producing a strong boat - maybe it just needs a simple splining job which can be simple and effective.



HOWEVER (4th and last time) if the boat is starting to have serious structural problems in lots of areas there will be no choice but a bigger, more complex job. THEN you have to decide what way.

I disagree that the epoxy/glass method will be full of regrets, it won't interfere much with the existing structure at all and if you want to go trad later - you can just sand off the glass - which does not need to be heavy or thick as suggested above - it can be relatively light - but it does need to be part of a consistent approach to keeping the structure dry so no swelling stresses affect the hull.

So as an alternative to refastening or replanking (yike) maybe the epoxy can be an easier route. And I mean MAYBE! You need to seek advice from people who are knowledgable about a range of methods.

If there are serious structural issues any solution will have to be serious in terms of time and money as well.

But if it is a simple splining ... you can have the boat on the water in a couple of weeks.

MIK

 

[ctelfer38]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

Boatmik, I was a little slack in my wording. I agree with you that epoxy, sensitively used as you describe and with judicious use of splines, can save a classic's hull. My comments on 'regrets' and 'spoiling' a classic are references to those I have seen where a skin of grp has been overlaid on the hull in an attempt to make it watertight /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[roly_voya]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

A Seanick says if a traditional bot is leeking look to the floors, there is a comment in this month C/B on the restoration of Phialle about adding laminated wing floors which ectend above the tight turn of the bilge beyond where ribs had cracked. This sort of approach with perhaps even a laminated ring frame in the way of the mast may inprove the strength enough to be able to get her caulked up and dry. As to epoxy I was wondering if it was possible to apply a copper epoxy antifoul to a traditional hull but when I talked to the manufaturers they wher unequivical - not possible there is to much movement and it will crack off. Think this is the piont, if its a coating the movement of the hull means it will come unstuck, if its heavy enough to stop any movement you will effectively have case a new hull using the ond one as a plug but the result will be so heavy it wont sail. Be very careful about removing internal fitting as it can be very difficult to get them back and looking right and if you don't you will loose alot of the charm of the boat an possibly value. Where ribs have cracked I have had good results with cutting back and building up laminated to make a laminated section f the rib rather than replacing the whole job. Doing it this way rather than putting in sisters has the advantage of avionding hard spots where the sisters finish and looks neat also means you dont need to get at all of the rib so may be able to disturb less of the interior.

 

[blackbeard]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

I've been somewhat involved with the 100 sq m Overlord and the 50 sq m Sea Scamp - both ex-German 1936-built boats.
Marvellous boats. But they have taken a fair bit of maintenance, and (you won't want to hear this) Overlord has been largely re-planked and both have been re-decked. As Club-owned boats they have access to a large labour pool but the more specialised jobs have been done by shipwrights.
Follow these for acccess to a great deal of advice:
http://www.seascamp.co.uk/

http://www.sailoverlord.co.uk/

regards, Mike

 

[Maclean]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

Thanks for those links. Cracking boats! I'm not sure if Sea Scamp was the 50sq spotted passing through the Kyles of Bute this year. When folk went back to look she had gone. Mine was previously known as Sea Grim but these days is affectionately known as 'Das Boot' , certainly by crew on bilge bucket duties.
Still not made my mind up about what to do!

 

[yachtsuna]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

Hello there,

I'm the current owner of Suna, a 30 sqm windfall based in Liverpool and also needing a bit of work! I'm in two minds whether to pay for a boatyard to sort her out or if someone offers her a good home I'll sell her because I no longer really have the time to do her justice. A bit more info at www.suna.org.uk if you're interested.

A really good book with a full history of all these yachts plus the original plans and all sorts of useful information was recently published, you can get a copy from www.windfallyachts.com and I highly recommend it.

There doesn't seem to be any record of 50sqm Sea Grim but there is a 60sqm called Seagram listed, maybe she could be yours? Her German name was Nordost and at one time she was called Silver Tassie.

Also well worth getting in touch with Jan Heurkamp at www.seefahrtkreuzer.de where a comprehensive register of the class is maintained - again sea grim doesn't seem to be listed, although there are a number of 50 and 60s without names so if you have some other identifying info you might be able to work out which one is yours!

Good luck and stay in touch, maybe we will meet on the water some time, where are you based?

Best wishes,
chris

 

[misty56]

Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

Sea Grim? SEA GRIM? I know that boat, she's for real all right. Unless there are two windfalls of that name, she was up here a....few more years ago than I'm prepared to admit. Sailed on her a couple of times, (and got beaten out of sight by her a lot more.) Nice boat--I was very young then and she made a big. big impression. IIRC she'd had a few feet lopped off the mast BTW.

You can't go mucking about a glorious boat like that with epoxy. Learn the skills and use wood. You can't get Brazil mahog these days so you'll have to be creative if timbers need replaced but really, are you sure she doesn't just need a bit splining as someone suggested or even a refasten and recaulk--boring job but easy enough-- that will stiffen her up right out of all recognition...I agree about not sistering frames if you can avoid it. As for the deck, well, teak is hellish expensive, especially in the quantities you'd need. What about an alternative like iroko?

An old friend of mine is intending to set up as a travelling independent boatbuilder/repairer specialising in classics later this year btw-- where are you about, roughly? I'm sure there'd be a deal where you get help with the parts that really need a trained hand, leaving you do do the rest under his guidance.

Talk about blast from the past--Sea Grim! Never thought I'd come across her again. Congratulations on owning such a ship and please be good to her. I think I need a wee whisky after that!