What's so good about traditional construction?

Maclean

Maclean

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What\'s so good about traditional construction?

I have a dilemma that I would like to throw open to some classic boat types. I have one of the so called 'Windfall' yachts, a 50 sq which I have sailed for about six years now. It's the best boat I have ever sailed but being over 80 years old, is now ready for a major refit. I simply can't afford the time or money to do this 'properly' so my choice is to sell or to go down the epoxy route. The idea of filling every seam and encapsulating the Brazillian mahogany hull, lining the deck with ply before redecking with a more affordable thickness of teak seems to polarize opinions. Some seem to consider it sacrilege while others reckon I would end up with a super strong hull that might last another 80 years. I could probably afford this, just, and it's within my capabilities. Is an ex Luftwaffe bullet ridden piece of history so important that I should give up on it? Or is it just a boat, and if I can make it seaworthy and looking good then to hell with traditional methods?
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

I'll get flamed for this but.................

It isn't a distinguished piece of history that needs to be preserved in original condition (is it).

You own it and you enjoy using it.................. fix it, make it sea worthy again by any method and materials that will help and continue to sail it. After all it will probably out last you as it did the former owners.

I'll just be over here now keeping a low profile.

Tom
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

A classic example of what you are proposing is 'Curlew', the famous Falmouth Quay Punt sailed by the Carrs all over the world.
I think she was close on 80 years old when they gave her a new lease on life by laminating a new strip planked hull over the existing hull. It made her much stronger and stiffer as a result, and she used to mop up the opposition at all the sailing regattas.

More about her at http://archive.thisisthewestcountry.co.uk/2003/6/26/29876.html
and
http://www.nmmc.co.uk/index.php?page=Collections&type=Boat&id=190&choiceid=31
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

Personally I don't like the idea of using epoxy on a carvel planked boat. If done incorrectly it'll certainly rot away rather quickly! I'd also doubt if it'd really be that much cheaper. Besides: what's the problem with the hull? Does it leak, broken frames, rot? You could look for some alternatives concerning the deck, but wouldn't epoxy the hull.
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

I recognise the boat. Passed it often enough in the Kyles. My parents have a similar 'problem' with their 1947 Robert Clark moored nearby. They are both 83 and don't see the point in doing it. Looks as if I'll have to dig deep at some point.

Donald
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

An inspirational site! Unfortunately anything to do with a boatyard is way beyond my means -I have to do any work myself. The hull is pretty sound but opens up when you sail hard as is not uncommon with a lightly built carvel hull. The deck can be viewed as a bit of a showerhead. Several frames are cracked and all the interior paint is flaking. The whole topsides and interior would need to come off to get in about things and if I'm going that far, why not encapsulate and get a nice stiff hull. Fed up with my lovely paint job cracking the first time I sail hard!
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

Just epoxying the hull will only provide a temporary solution. What you will be doing is making a big plastic sheath for the wooden hull to slowly rot inside, and it usually accelerates the rate of decay of the yacht in the long term. You can't afford a yard to do the work - no problem, but doing the work yourself is not rocket science and you will get plenty of advice here if you need it.

To keep the cost down, consider if you can, transporting the boat to your back garden (do you have the space?) and then spending a couple of years doing it up. You have to balance the cost of long term yard storage against the cost of a crane and transporter. The yard may well do a deal.

A good solid frame and tarps over the boat itself- worth spending the money on- secure storage and permanently blocked off days in the diary to give yourself time to work, and that's half the battle. Tell the SWMBO that all other house DIY is off limits till the boat is back in the water. The big decision is deciding to do it. There is nothing you cannot do yourself on a wooden boat that can't be worked using common sense and a bit of patience. Beautiful boats were built by illiterate men in the past (no offense to any boatbuilders here), so as 90% of the cost of restoration is the labour, you can save a packet by doing it yourself

From what you've said, a lot of the leaking could be from the cracked frames letting the hull work, especially if you have a narrow hull and a deep keel, so replace them- and they can be laminated in place to save ripping out the internal joinery. Replace any rotten planking - time consuming but not impossible, and then give yourself a new deck; marine ply with a teak 3/8" overlay and you should have what seems to be a brand new boat. It'll take time, but think of the satisfaction.

But don't epoxy. You'll be fine and watertight for a couple of years then the boat 'll fall to bits. I'd get a qualified boatbuilder to survey the vessel and to give you a plan of action and to act as an adviser and shoulder to cry on when things get tough. It will be a daunting prospect, but a total amateur rebuilt Cleone in his back garden from the keel up to "showroom" finish. She is 150 years old and still in mint condition. It can be done.
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

Totally agree! Fix the frames as they're the main reason for your leaky hull. Either by sistering frames next to the broken ones or scarfing (1:8 ratio lenght of scarf/thickness of frame). Either steam-bend or laminate the wood to fit the hull shape. Not that difficult really! Some very nice photos can be found here: http://www.kilander.de/SYMINONAII/WINTERARBEIT01/Winterarbeit.html
(sorry only in german). Epoxying an otherwhise fine hull would leave you with a bogus repair and long term problems...
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

I can see your point - of course it would be better to re-build traditionally - but I am just wondering why Curlew lasted for 20+ years quite happily, including at least one voyage round the world, after her new epoxied lease on life......?
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

Thanks Seagreen. A comprehensive post that sums up the arguments for the defence. The boat is already at the end of the garden and I've had to scarfe in a plank before so not scared there. Most are in good condition though. No matter which way I go, the whole interior has to come out to get access to the frames and the epoxy proponents reckon that's the time to strike. My decision's not made easier by seeing so many other classic restorations using epoxy. I wonder what the Luftwaffe would have used in 1926 if all the options had been there?
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

[ QUOTE ]
I can see your point - of course it would be better to re-build traditionally - but I am just wondering why Curlew lasted for 20+ years quite happily, including at least one voyage round the world, after her new epoxied lease on life......?

[/ QUOTE ]

Epoxy can be great, no doubt about that. But "a retrofit triple diagonal kauri pine sheathing" would hardly be something the amateur could achieve. If I understand that correctly the hull had been cold molded over the existing timber structure which'll end up in a very strong construction for given weight indeed and it'll be absolutely watertight. Bit different from just "epoxying the hull" though.
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

I read your dilemma with great interest and,cautiously,offer the following very loose advice.

I am familiar with the 50 squares' construction,I have sailed on two-One of which was FIBREGLASS sheathed (a no no these days)-My only reservation with the later was that the boat was far too heavy,sat low in the water,moved heavily and created more stress on everything by its own momentum-but it was a dry boat below..
The other boat i did my first bluewater sailing in,and she leaked- usually observed at the butt ends which fell between the steamed ribs.We sistered 8 grown frames that were cracked-and advice at the time was that that wouldn't do much to help-but we did it anyway.There were several cracked steamed ribs but the topsides never opend up noticeably when hard on the wind......I believe that many of these boats were not caulked(ie dry seamed).Inevitably as the structure grows older and floppier-exacerbated by too many cracked bent frames in line with each other,some softening around the rivets and hood ends-seams will leak more...
If it were me-and subject to getting at least one good boatbuilder up there to have a looksee,one who has gone down the diagonal/epoxy route-I would start by removing the internals and bracing the hull really well to maintain -or restore-the slight sheerline.
I would replace all broken ribs and floors and refasten and rivetted butt joints,floorbolts and loose knees,paying particular attention to the cwntreline structure.
I would then think to triangulate the rig/mast foot/keel loadings together design and fabricate a spaceframe/bulkhead in way of the mast to ease the chainplate loadings more kindly into the hull and mast foot.
I would definitely fit a new plywood deck sheathed in epoxy/cloth and not bother with the weight and expense of a teak overdeck.The characteristics of the ply will usefully stiffen the floppy hull.
I would attempt to spline just enough seams along each side-say 3,well spaced- to take up any obvious gaps now that you have repared the cracked framing...and I would leave it at that,painting the topsides in a light colour in a conventional (ie soft,one part polyurethane)paint.
I am no expert,But I have sailed 2 50s pretty thoroughly..I write this just to help get the ball rolling,and there are some very well qualified boatbuilders who pop in to this forum ....
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

An interesting compromise option from Blueboatman. It's great to hear from someone who's sailed these boats. If it didn't sail so well I would get rid of it straight away (assuming I could afford something else) but when you can let go of the tiller and go for a wee walk round the deck while the boat sails itself without gadgets, it's hard to go back to a frisky modern boat. I'm enjoying the different opinions that are out there. One thought - a boatbuilder friend reckons many more boats are taken to bits to restore than are ever put back together. Could I be about to vandalize a classic?
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

One reason why Curlew was so successful is that they did the work in a nice warm DRY climate having allowed Curlew to dry out thoroughly in a shed before they started. Epoxy needs nice and dry wood for success. So as I assume from the content of the thread you are in Scotland you need a shed and your own oil well to pay the heating bills.
I would certainly look at overhauling the frames, and possibly splining the seams with a more tolerant marine glue than epoxy. Draw a few fastenings to establish their quality, no point in overhauling frames and plank if they are still poorly joined together.
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

Aye there's the rub..Long lean metre boats do sail so well,and so comfortably-it would be sad to build a battleship restoration job that no longer sailed nimbly and fleet of foot.
My first (!)boat was a 40 ft design by Fife (though not from Fairlie)in pretty poor condition. Unfortunately I had neither the time,skill,money or location to do what really needed doing(everything)so it passed to a young skilled boatbuilder after a couple of years...and is part restored and still looking for a well heeled new owner afaik.....I am sure that whatever you do,by getting the boat under cover at the end of your garden and tackling what you can,your confidence and expertise will rise to the occasion.Or you can pass it on to someone who is able to tackle it instead.
By the way,of the 2 boats I sailed,Pirol was last seen in the Med stripped out and being restored very slowly by a Spaniard,and the grp sheathed Strelesund was in sailing condition in the Canaries.
Neither of these 2 boats had their original rigs,which was sad as everyone suspected that that would provide the very best sailing-it looks from the pic as though yours does ?
Good luck.
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

[ QUOTE ]
when you can let go of the tiller and go for a wee walk round the deck while the boat sails itself without gadgets, it's hard to go back to a frisky modern boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry to interupt with nothing to add on construction methods, but I am intrigued by the above comment. On my boat, a 1972 Ecume de Mer which is fin and skeg, and my brother's much newer Moody 31, fin keel, it is very easy to set them up to sail themselves without resorting to the autopilot, certainly long enough to go for a wee walk round the deck.
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

Because "Curlew" wasnt epoxy sheathed, she was sheathed with timber laminated and epoxied together, a different way of doing things, in effect cold moulding.
I have seen a double diangonal ex RNLI lifeboat, done the same way, in effect a new layer of planking, which works fine.
 
Re: What\'s so good about traditional construction?

You are unlikley to have much joy with total epoxy encapsulation. When did you see a house with subsidence having Hi-tech plaster put on the walls?
You can gain massive amounts of strength, both longitudinal, and torsional by splineing the topsides down to the waterline. That will also maintain your topside finish. I have done this on similar vessels and it has been very successful.
If she leaks under sail then look at you floors, floor fastenings and for broken timbers. They may need repairing and improving.
If you can't afford to do this work, then pass her on too someone who can.
In answer to your question, traditional plank on frame construction is fast, economic, sustainable and repairable. Like any construction method, the end product has a life span.

Timber is a natural product and decays
Steel rusts
Aluminium corrodes
Ferro Cement goes out of fashion
GRP suffers osmosis and wicking

Of course all of the above mediums last longer if maintained properly!
 
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