what would a 10 ton T.M. clinker sloop have looked like?

[Shearwater]

In the early sixties, winter time, I would ride my Triumph T110 bike from Thorpe Bay (Essex) to Creeksea to varnish the wooden boom and mast of a boat owned by one Ernie Turmaine, removal contractor, Southend. In return I sailed with him as crew most weekends in the summer. I cannot remember much of the boat but there was a plaque on the bulkhead indicating it was 10 tons Thames Measurement. I have tried various search strings but have yet to find a picture of any form showing what the lines of the boat might be like. Pointers muchly appreciated. (Are there really 514 viewers online at 02:13 utc?)

 

[johnlilley]

10 ton TM includes a considerable amount of different designs. Generally the length would be around 32-35ft depending on beam & depth (not draft). The Troll Class was around 31ft with clinker planking and canoe stern, Be surprised if it was 10 tons, probably nearer 9 tons Cannot recall any obvious clinker designs of that sort of length. Bit like asking what sort of car would it be if it weighed around 1200KG nowadays.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

In the early sixties, winter time, I would ride my Triumph T110 bike from Thorpe Bay (Essex) to Creeksea to varnish the wooden boom and mast of a boat owned by one Ernie Turmaine, removal contractor, Southend. In return I sailed with him as crew most weekends in the summer. I cannot remember much of the boat but there was a plaque on the bulkhead indicating it was 10 tons Thames Measurement. I have tried various search strings but have yet to find a picture of any form showing what the lines of the boat might be like. Pointers muchly appreciated. (Are there really 514 viewers online at 02:13 utc?)

Thames measurement bears little relationship to the size of a vessel; it is an ancient and arcane thing that relates to the carrying capacity of a boat, not it's actual size. The "tons" aren't actual tons - it refers to the number of "tuns" (big barrels) that can be stowed in a vessel. Its origins are in taxation. I believe the formula includes such things as "depth of hold" - a difficult concept for a leisure craft! So, basically, Thames measurement is what a surveyor with the right accreditation says it is. It's noteworthy that traditional boatyards (e g. Hillyards) that produced a line of vessels with the same nominal tonnage produced very different vessels with the same tonnage! So, Thames measurement isn't really helpful in identifying even the broad class of a boat, I'm afraid. The names and location might be more helpful if someone who knows the area sees your post.

The forum has members all over the world, with regular contributors from the USA, Australia, and most of Europe, so the numbers you see at night reflect that

 

[Buck Turgidson]

My twister has a Gross Tonnage of 4.96 and a registered Tonnage of 4.44. I've no idea what her displacement is but there is barely room to swing a cat inside

 

[Tranona]

That difference will likely be for your chart space. My old Eventide 26 was 3.6 registered tonnes which included an allowance for "apprentices". When measuring there are many allowances available to reduce the registered tonnage, exploited by owners because that was the basis for calculating light dues and port fees! So relationships between measuring surveyors and owners were "close".

Back to the OP. A purpose clinker built boat of that size would have been unusual as the method was more commonly used for smaller boats and particularly workboats. So could have been a conversion.

 

[debenriver]

Thames Measurement (TM) was created in 1855 as a variation of Builder's Old Measurement by the Royal Thames Yacht Club, and was designed for small vessels, such as yachts. It was originally used for calculating the port dues for yachts and was also used in some early handicapping systems for yacht racing. It continued as a generalized size description of sailing yachts until fairly recently. Though it is expressed in "tons" has little to do with the actual displacement weight of the vessel.

The formula is:TM = ((L - B) ×( B × B ÷ 2)) ÷ 94 where:

L = Length in feet from the fore side of the stempost to the aft side of the sternpost.
B = Maximum beam in feet.

It was commonly used by designers and builders to describe sailing yachts – like the "Deben 4-tonner" was 4 tons TM. Mirelle, built in 1937 is a 12 tonner (12 tons TM), Florence Edith built in 1938 is an 8-tonner (8 tons TM), Marlin built in 1936 is a 13-tonner (13 tons TM) and so on. Still in fairly common use today for traditional boats

Our Design 067 , 29'9⅛" LOA x 9'9½" Beam would be about 10 tons TM – which gives you some idea of what size a 10-tonner would be. And she has been built in epoxy-ply lapstrake (the modern equivalent of clinker) as well as cold-moulded construction.

George

 

[srm]

My twister has a Gross Tonnage of 4.96 and a registered Tonnage of 4.44. I've no idea what her displacement is but there is barely room to swing a cat inside

While registered tonnage and TM are both essentially volume measurements the formulae are different.
For ships gross tonnage was the total internal volume then deductions were made for crew accommodation, ships stores, working spaces etc to get the registered tonnage that was a nominal volume for cargo.

Way back in the early 70's we paid harbour dues on my yacht for a few days in Peterhead harbour based on our registered tonnage, it came to something like 25 pence a week. A year earlier I was working on a research ship in the Bristol channel when the owners insisted the ship took a pilot to go up under the bridges. The pilot asked what the tonnage was and decided it was not worth his time as that was the basis for his fee.

 

[Shearwater]

Many thanks each and all.

 

[john_q]

For comparison purposes, a 25 foot British folk boat is 5 Thames tons

 

[pyrojames]

I grew up on a converted ships lifeboat, clinker, 30 feet long and 10 foot beam. Pretty much comes out as 10 TM. She was rigged as a ketch, with leebaords for shallow draft. Post war there were quite a lot of converted lifeboats about, but few survive these days. Quite a lot of space for a double ender, but not really very much good as a yacht!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I grew up on a converted ships lifeboat, clinker, 30 feet long and 10 foot beam. Pretty much comes out as 10 TM. She was rigged as a ketch, with leebaords for shallow draft. Post war there were quite a lot of converted lifeboats about, but few survive these days. Quite a lot of space for a double ender, but not really very much good as a yacht!

My dad's first "big boat" was a converted lifeboat; gaff cutter rigged with shallow bilge keels. Pretty good accommodation for a family of four. She'd been fitted to a high standard by the previous owner, a craftsman at Blackburn Aircraft! I remember dad pointing at the jib furler and asking "Wykeham Martin?" and getting the answer"No, Blackburn Aircraft"! She sailed ok off the wind, but she could be difficult to tack; i learnt the tricks like holding the jib aback at an early age - I must have been about 9!

No instruments beyond a compass!

Abiding memory of trying to get a ball-bearing out of a toy Dalek to fix the water pump on the Thornycroft Handy Billy engine! And a remarkably peaceful time aground at Trent Falls after mistaking the channel and spending a tide there. Miles of good sand!

 

[Wansworth]

Troll class as mentioned……..or a medievel COG

 

[Kukri]

I grew up on a converted ships lifeboat, clinker, 30 feet long and 10 foot beam. Pretty much comes out as 10 TM. She was rigged as a ketch, with leebaords for shallow draft. Post war there were quite a lot of converted lifeboats about, but few survive these days. Quite a lot of space for a double ender, but not really very much good as a yacht!

Almost snap! My father had bought an ex RNLI 35ft pulling and sailing lifeboat and converted her to sloop rig just before WW2

 

[Poignard]

My twister has a Gross Tonnage of 4.96 and a registered Tonnage of 4.44. I've no idea what her displacement is but there is barely room to swing a cat inside

Last time I had my composite Twister craned out I asked the crane driver what she weighed and I have a note of it somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.
I think it was about 4-1/4 tons.*
I had been thinking of re-flagging my boat in Ireland and that would need a tonnage survey doing since the Irish Registry will not accept the British tonnage survey carried out in 1967.
I asked a surveyor in Brittany if he would do it in my absence but he told me would have to go inside the boat to measure the distance from the top of the keel to the underside of the coachroof and also to confirm the make and power of the engine.

*Found it. She weighed 4-1/2 tones. Exactly the same as another composite Twister being craned out at he same time.
However, this included fuel, water, spare parts, tools and equipment.