Talbot
Active member
Following a long discussion last night about reefing and apparent tippyness of AWBs, thought it might be interesting to get some comparisons:
What wind speed do you reef?
- Thread starter Talbot
- Start date
I refuse to participate in the survey unless Sail-Area/Displacement ratio is factored in as well 
A Nich 35 owner might ridicule the fact that I start to think "reef" at about 15 knots over the deck but I have 50% more sail area driving a hull that is 1 ton lighter.
A Nich 35 owner might ridicule the fact that I start to think "reef" at about 15 knots over the deck but I have 50% more sail area driving a hull that is 1 ton lighter.
KREW2
Well-known member
With regards tippyness you must be assuming the boat is sailing close hauled do you want wind speed over the deck or true wind speed.
Don't want to seem a wuss.
Don't want to seem a wuss.
FullCircle
Well-known member
Who cares about when you reef? Its the ease of the operation and the maintenence of decent passage speed uphill that counts for me. It only spoils the aesthetics of the boat. My Jen dealer was right, you sail these upright and they whistle along. Hairy Chested toe rails in the wet stuff is S L O W.
FWIW I have had a third reef point put into my main, and have a removeable forestay with a hanked on storm jib for the really wet stuff.
FWIW I have had a third reef point put into my main, and have a removeable forestay with a hanked on storm jib for the really wet stuff.
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a removeable forestay with a hanked on storm jib for the really wet stuff.
[/ QUOTE ]
One of these is on my todo list.
As a matter of interest how did you reinforce the bottom forestay attachment point?
a removeable forestay with a hanked on storm jib for the really wet stuff.
[/ QUOTE ]
One of these is on my todo list.
As a matter of interest how did you reinforce the bottom forestay attachment point?
Robin
Well-known member
This is meaningless unless the sail area is taken into account as well as whether it is true or apparent windspeed and up or down wind.
We have a tall rig and big sail area (and also a deep keel, you know the thing under our only hull!). Upwind we CHOOSE to reef for optimum comfort and boat speed at around 16kts apparent, but because we go upwind at an optimum 28degs apparent and 7kts boatspeed this can equate to just a good F3 true wind. We CAN carry full sail upwind in up to 25kts apparent but it is SLOW as well as being uncomfy, our side decks and coamings are designed to be sat on not stood on from the other side of the cockpit like when a MAB playing el sub digs her nose under the green stuff. Oh and BTW we stay dry in the cockpit without the sprayhood going upwind in up to and including F5, above that we might want the hood up or a waterproof top on. I appreciate that these wind angle figures may not fit within cat polars when upwind really means a beam reach.... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Downwind we have carried full sail (main and genoa) in a F8 on a broad reach and under autopilot, sprayhood down and lunch whilst sitting in position A on the coamings leaning into the padded backrests. However when the tide turned against the wind and the seas became stroppier we pulled all 3 mainsail reefs in and half the genoa and put up with just 8-9kts instead of 9kts plus averaged. That way we still had to add our own salt to dinner when it was served.
So pray tell me how to fill in your poll! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
We have a tall rig and big sail area (and also a deep keel, you know the thing under our only hull!). Upwind we CHOOSE to reef for optimum comfort and boat speed at around 16kts apparent, but because we go upwind at an optimum 28degs apparent and 7kts boatspeed this can equate to just a good F3 true wind. We CAN carry full sail upwind in up to 25kts apparent but it is SLOW as well as being uncomfy, our side decks and coamings are designed to be sat on not stood on from the other side of the cockpit like when a MAB playing el sub digs her nose under the green stuff. Oh and BTW we stay dry in the cockpit without the sprayhood going upwind in up to and including F5, above that we might want the hood up or a waterproof top on. I appreciate that these wind angle figures may not fit within cat polars when upwind really means a beam reach.... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Downwind we have carried full sail (main and genoa) in a F8 on a broad reach and under autopilot, sprayhood down and lunch whilst sitting in position A on the coamings leaning into the padded backrests. However when the tide turned against the wind and the seas became stroppier we pulled all 3 mainsail reefs in and half the genoa and put up with just 8-9kts instead of 9kts plus averaged. That way we still had to add our own salt to dinner when it was served.
So pray tell me how to fill in your poll! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
ChrisE
Active member
Where's the 30+ knot box?
FullCircle
Well-known member
<<<how did you reinforce the bottom forestay attachment point? >>>
The Jeanneau has a large stainless plated area over the bow roller and bottom fixing for the furling drum. A large Wichard Padeye inserted through the deck and plate and another stainless spreader plate inserted underneath. After all, you arent loading the area any more than normal as when using the storm forestay you aren't using the furling gear.
Wire halyard leading to 6:1 Harken mainsheet block with enough line to lead back across the coachroof and be threaded into a jammer,, and thus the coachroof winch for tension if necessary. The mainsheet blockholds the tension until kicked open of course.
The forestay is stored forard of the port shrouds on a pad eye, and doesn't impede the Genoa on the way through.
The Jeanneau has a large stainless plated area over the bow roller and bottom fixing for the furling drum. A large Wichard Padeye inserted through the deck and plate and another stainless spreader plate inserted underneath. After all, you arent loading the area any more than normal as when using the storm forestay you aren't using the furling gear.
Wire halyard leading to 6:1 Harken mainsheet block with enough line to lead back across the coachroof and be threaded into a jammer,, and thus the coachroof winch for tension if necessary. The mainsheet blockholds the tension until kicked open of course.
The forestay is stored forard of the port shrouds on a pad eye, and doesn't impede the Genoa on the way through.
Talbot
Active member
My apologies for not making myself clearer. I was refering to apparent wind closehauled.
IMHO arguments about tall rigs and large sail areas are merely hiding the facts. A tall rig and large sail area will undoubtedly mean reefing earlier, and yes many people can stand on in much higher windstrengths, but it is self defeating for one reason or another.
I am not trying to highlight failings/capabilities of one type of boat or another, merely trying to get a feel about when different types of boat tend to reef.
IMHO arguments about tall rigs and large sail areas are merely hiding the facts. A tall rig and large sail area will undoubtedly mean reefing earlier, and yes many people can stand on in much higher windstrengths, but it is self defeating for one reason or another.
I am not trying to highlight failings/capabilities of one type of boat or another, merely trying to get a feel about when different types of boat tend to reef.
ShipsWoofy
New member
15 -20 for first reef, though may wait a little longer if the sea is quite flat and the 15-20 means just that. Cats have to reef for gusts not average as you know.
More likely roll the genny a bit first as have increased to 145% which is bigger than custom, boat is designed to fly sideways rather than get tippy, but I get a bit anxious when flying bigger genny in high 4's and above.
Depends very much on how she feels at the time, but 15 - 20 is prolly about right.
More likely roll the genny a bit first as have increased to 145% which is bigger than custom, boat is designed to fly sideways rather than get tippy, but I get a bit anxious when flying bigger genny in high 4's and above.
Depends very much on how she feels at the time, but 15 - 20 is prolly about right.
Lakesailor
New member
On lakes the wind speed is so variable that reefing is a fools's game, unless it's above about 14/15mph when it's all relative.
You often go from sails flapping uselessly to a gust of 20 or more mph in a few seconds, and sometimes you can't spot them coming on the water.
My boat's only 18ft but it will sail quite well in a puff until the rudder loses grip. If it happens a lot I go home.
I did use the roller boom reefing gear once and it did make the ride better, the speed more constant and there was less falling over. But it's not quite the same as the sea when you can make a judgement early and can live with it.
I keep saying I'll make the effort.
You often go from sails flapping uselessly to a gust of 20 or more mph in a few seconds, and sometimes you can't spot them coming on the water.
My boat's only 18ft but it will sail quite well in a puff until the rudder loses grip. If it happens a lot I go home.
I did use the roller boom reefing gear once and it did make the ride better, the speed more constant and there was less falling over. But it's not quite the same as the sea when you can make a judgement early and can live with it.
I keep saying I'll make the effort.
Talbot
Active member
My genny is a tad bigger than standard as well! get the wind from abt 65 degrees and she can really move!
pgod
New member
Isn't it about the balance of the boat, onset of weather helm and a growing feeling of fighting the elements rather than going with them?
Talbot
Active member
On a cat , its also about leeway
Robin
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
I am not trying to highlight failings/capabilities of one type of boat or another, merely trying to get a feel about when different types of boat tend to reef.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can generalise that easily between boat types because other factors come into play, like hull form and beam. Wide flat hulls are initially very stiff, not tippy at all, rather like a multihull, whereas a narrow hull even with a long keel may be initially tender until the angle of dangle brings the keel weight into play because stationary it's ballast has no leverage.
For sure boats with long keels or long fins and heavy displacement tend to carry full sail in heavier winds, indeed many of them need a stiff breeze to even get going properly. To my mind often this means they miss the best weather to sail in because they lack the performance to sail at a reasonable pace in winds of say F2 -F3 so on goes the engine. If you look at the band of windstrength when sailing is pleasurable rather than achievable it is probably quite narrow for most people and most boats, ie F4 -F5. Being able to sail in F2-F3 extends the pleasurable band considerably, as long as it can be done whilst still being able to handle the rough stuff.
In our earlier Westerly 33 Ketch we reefed at around 14kts apparent going upwind, depite this being a relatively heavy displacement long fin keeler, at 14kts we dropped the mizzen to reduce weather helm which slowed us down. On our current cruiser racer with a much higher sail area/displacement ratio we put in the first reef in the main upwind at around 16kts apparent, actually not significantly different. In both cases sail could be carried in higher windspeeds (up to 25kts even) but the performance would be no better and probably slower.
The differences of course are more important on a multi which has a capsize risk to consider whereas on a monohull we are just looking to reduce weather helm and heel angle for optimum comfort and performance.
Robin
I am not trying to highlight failings/capabilities of one type of boat or another, merely trying to get a feel about when different types of boat tend to reef.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can generalise that easily between boat types because other factors come into play, like hull form and beam. Wide flat hulls are initially very stiff, not tippy at all, rather like a multihull, whereas a narrow hull even with a long keel may be initially tender until the angle of dangle brings the keel weight into play because stationary it's ballast has no leverage.
For sure boats with long keels or long fins and heavy displacement tend to carry full sail in heavier winds, indeed many of them need a stiff breeze to even get going properly. To my mind often this means they miss the best weather to sail in because they lack the performance to sail at a reasonable pace in winds of say F2 -F3 so on goes the engine. If you look at the band of windstrength when sailing is pleasurable rather than achievable it is probably quite narrow for most people and most boats, ie F4 -F5. Being able to sail in F2-F3 extends the pleasurable band considerably, as long as it can be done whilst still being able to handle the rough stuff.
In our earlier Westerly 33 Ketch we reefed at around 14kts apparent going upwind, depite this being a relatively heavy displacement long fin keeler, at 14kts we dropped the mizzen to reduce weather helm which slowed us down. On our current cruiser racer with a much higher sail area/displacement ratio we put in the first reef in the main upwind at around 16kts apparent, actually not significantly different. In both cases sail could be carried in higher windspeeds (up to 25kts even) but the performance would be no better and probably slower.
The differences of course are more important on a multi which has a capsize risk to consider whereas on a monohull we are just looking to reduce weather helm and heel angle for optimum comfort and performance.
Robin
Cotillion
Member
I suspect I am in the 15 - 20knt area. Though as a general rule of thumb I reef when the weather helm is causing the tiller to drag me accross the cockpit.
Kim
Kim
F_McMillan
New member
On the E boat we reef early to keep it flat but we can't reef a Hurricane 5.9 cat so never is the answer on that one, and if anyone wants to know the mast breaks when the wind gets to 52mph
ccscott49
Active member
I have short masts for my length/weight and carry heavy cloth sails, so reef very late, if Englander heels more than ten degrees, we are really pushing it and the sails would probably blow out before a reef was needed under those conditions. So it's difficult to say when I would reef, when it got uncomfortable or frightened me, the sea state and direction of swell/wave would also have quite a bearing on my decision.
SteveB_Sigma33
New member
Surely it all depends if you know how to use your sails properly.
A lot to be said for putting in twist releasing the kicker and moving the cars back.
A lot to be said for putting in twist releasing the kicker and moving the cars back.
copterdoctor
New member
Reef as soon as you think you might need to and take the reef out half an hour after you think you could.
