What to put in your grab bag?

A spare boat by the sound of many recommendations one sees from time to time.


Just have a 406 EPIRB on board and you will be out of the raft before you even have time to worry about where you are or how to catch fish. In fact, generally if you actuate them before getting into the raft you are likely to be rescued before getting into it.

John
 
[ QUOTE ]
Just have a 406 EPIRB on board and you will be out of the raft before you even have time to worry about where you are or how to catch fish. In fact, generally if you actuate them before getting into the raft you are likely to be rescued before getting into it.
John

[/ QUOTE ]

Not too sure about that! Took 7 hours for the Egyptians to organise a rescue mission for a ferry not knowing if it was one or one thousand in trouble! There are a lot more countries than just Egypt who are not going to rush to answer the call of the EPIRB! I would take a grab bag or have a legal or otherwise SSB to call my mates!
Michael
 
So you have had a change of heart Micheal. You now agree that SSB works (perhaps you now know a little more about propagation and that means that one does not call on 2182 /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif). Quite a turnaround.

Now, a little more experience and knowledge on your part will soon have you singing the praises of 406 EPIRB's too and how quickly rescues result after an alert from one. Just do a little more study of the GMDSS, the SAR Convention and how the Search and Rescue Regions work. Also look at the statistics of rescues involving 406 EPIRB's.

Perhaps also have a talk with your nearest SARCC responsible for one of the Convention Search and Rescue Regions (not sure where you are, but maybe Falmouth is the nearest) about how it all works worldwide and what happens when an alert is received by COSPAS/SARSAT from a vessel on a country's register. My experience is that these people are very helpful and I know some other forumites have found the same.

Of course, also ask them how long an oceanic rescue typically takes. You may wish to report back to us on that.

John
 
your all forgetting the most important thing, a water proof copy of your insurance certificate. and a good salute as you watch your pride and joy sink
 
The serious point is that there are many waters in the world where you will not get rescued if you activate a 406 EPIRB whatever the literature or conventions may say.

It took Egypt 7 hours to get a rescue underway for that ferry - Egypt like many countries does not have proper search and rescue organisation and in many cases, because of corruption, finance and the high proportion of false alarms (87%!)will, in reality, not look 'urgently'. Of course in the paperwork and reports a rosy picture will be painted but the reality is there are vast areas of the world where the system does not work - like many parts of the Red Sea. A grab bag is important.

I have always recommended an SSB for a cruising yacht offshore but its value is in contacting other cruising yachts - Hams in an emergency situation. Most of the distress frequencies are not generally monitored. As an informal rescue device it will probably get help to you long before an EPIRB.

You are naive John, if you think the electronic systems work as publicised outside 'western' type waters. You give me the impression you have sailed extensively in home waters but never ventured further in a small boat.

Michael
 
It took Egypt 7 hours to get a rescue underway for that ferry

Because there was no alert from the ship. It is currently believed that there was no indication of a problem until after it did not turn up in port. Old RORO's have a habit of rapidly losing stability if the vehicle deck is flooded - is starting to look like that is what happened (does anyone have more information?).

I am afraid that fleet owners pay me for advice on this stuff whereas you have no experience of and apparantly negligible knowledge of the system nor of actual events within it. Perhaps you should stick to talking about your own profession where one expects you might be an expert and in which I would be at a loss.

In the end, your claims run the sad danger of discouraging people from use of the fundamental alerting device for all the GMDSS Sea Areas A1 to A4. However, I think that risk is now negligible as your claims are beginning to look so foolish that they will be seen through by most and I need say no more.

I do assume that you will talk to Falmouth (or whatever is your nearest Regional RCC) as I suggested in my earlier post, and report back to us all with what they say about your views. It is easy to do, and other forumites have done so, but somehow I think that you will find an excuse not to.

John
 
There was an alert received by British RAF search and rescue and passed to Egypt at the moment of sinking. The ship also carried 406 Epirb which was activated. Egypt had the information but failed to re-act urgently. Not a big surprise.

I do not know if you have ever worked or visited these sorts of countries, except as a tourist, but the difference between the theory and reality is breathtaking.

The senior authorities will tell you one thing but on the ground it bears no resemblance. Ask any westerner who does business there. (One British yacht accepted a 3 hour tow from an Egyptian warship and was impounded until £40,000 was paid to the Admiral in command of the warship in his PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNT! )

In no way am I discouraging anyone from carrying or using a 406 EPIRB - I do. I am just trying to inject a little reality into the discussion. - I know and have worked with UK CC in the course of several productions and they agree - off the record - there are many places in this world where the search and rescue facilities do not match or live up to the spirit of the international conventions.

Have you ever been to Borneo, Philippians since the US departed, Indonesia, Sudan, Eritrea, parts of South America? I rather think not. Mexico/Columbia/Honduras (although the Yanks do make their 'facilities', unofficially available, in the last 3 if you telephone them).

In the Atlantic and the Pacific you will get help from other 'cruising boats' far sooner than by 'official' resources which is exactly why an illegal snipped SSB is so valuable. I speak from personal experience and the first hand experience of several friends.

It is irresponsible to post -

'If you activate a 406 Epirb you will be rescued almost before you climb into the life-raft'

There is a huge difference between the theory of world wide - international search and rescue and the stark reality. No problem in Antipodean, European, US waters of course.
Michael
 
So you are not going to talk to your closest Regional RCC because they will be talking rubbish? If your EPIRB is registered with them then you would also be telling them that they would take no action in the case of an alert from it. You seem to be unaware that rescue can be (and has been) coordinated from any RCC in the world if the local area the alert is in cannot respond.

In the end you are talking bollox aren't you.

The ship also carried 406 Epirb which was activated

That remains to be seen and the newsmedia are not claiming any such alert was received. Perhaps you are confused by the earlier media reports you refer to that an alert was received by a British site, variously claimed to be in Scotland and in the Mediteranean - that, of course, could not have been a 406MHz alert.

If a 406 alert was sent then alot of people in a number of countries would know that was so and none of them have squealed yet.

John
 
My EPIRB is USA registered to my French address.

I just posted I did talk to UK CC and they agree with me, 'off the record'. There are countries in the world who subscribe to the international 406 search and rescue organization but do not always have suitable facilities available. Some do not have or want, to spend, the money involved in chasing the 87% of false alerts!

I am arguing that the system is not 100% foolproof. Not a difficult concept. Anybody who goes out into wider world, thinking a 406 EPIRB is going to result in the sort of instant rescue you describe, is very foolish and ill advised! Frequently they will have more chance of help from the cruising community via SSB on either marine or ham 'chat' frequencies

My only reason for bringing up the Ferry is it actually illustrates my point graphically and tragically. Such a disaster could not happen in European, Antipodean or US waters without an immediate reaction by S&R. I was actually watching UK news media when reports came in that a Ferry/Ship had been lost! It was then some 6 hours after that the first search and rescue from Egypt arrived on scene.

When the RAF alerted to a ship sinking, 7 hours, before do you honestly think they kept it a secret? I was careful to not to say it was an EPIRB. Indonesia, India, Somalia, Eritrea, Sudan, Pakistan and Egypt do have dreadful tragedies without the resources to instigate the sort of assistance we in the west take for granted. It is a fact of life. Never assume the rest of the world is like your own secure little corner.


John you must have travelled outside NZ at some point?

Have you been to 3rd or even 2nd world countries? The most wonderful promises are made, probably with good intentions by the representatives of countries at international conferences and meetings agreeing to all sorts of things. Egypt is a pretty sophisticated country but the corruption, the ability to just do nothing, the ability to 'not dare' do anything until directly ordered is endemic. Not just 'jobs worth' but entire 'life's worth'.

I know you do everything by the book and are very knowledgeable about many rules and regulations but you do appear to have led a very sheltered life and have no concept of what the real world is like or how SSB radio actually impinges on the everyday life of blue water cruisers.
Michael
 
Have you been to 3rd or even 2nd world countries?

As some forumites are aware, I currently spend more than half of my time working in a 3rd world country (most of the population are subsistance famers). Coincidentally enough, it is an assignment managing the rebuilding both the country's telecommunications hardware and telecommunications management infrastructures. Without wishing to appear self congratulatory, I am engaged by a group of foreign (non NZ) advisors who sort me on the basis of my experience in the field.

So, you see, you continue your habit of making very unsound assumptions when you accuse people of doing things by the book and of having no practical experience.

You also talk about EPIRB's in a manner that shows that you do not understand the system. For example, if ones 406 EPIRB is registered it does not matter whether the SAR area you initiate the alert from is a participating nation or not to Cospas/Sarsat, the alert still goes to Cospas/Sarsat and both the regional RCC and your own register advised (your own register has to do the checks with your nominated contacts and holds your up to date vessel details if you have bothered to maintain that). In your case if your EPIRB is registered in the USA then if it is properly registered that register will be advised (it is unusual for an EPIRB to be registered in a country different to the boats own country, but maybe your boat is also on the USA register - if not I would suggest that you ensure that the EPIRB registration is correct).

It is quite clear from your claims regarding non response by nations who are not Cospas/Sarsat participating nations that you are confused with the operation of the 121 MHz EPIRB's now being phased out. With those your comments certainly do apply as the satellites do not store and forward the distress alert to the next earth station as they do for 406 EPIRB's. Instead they rely on the satellite being able to relay the alert immediately to whatever earth station is in sight. There are wide areas of the world where there is no such available earth station and, of course, non participating nations will not have an earth station.

In fact, most participating nations do not react to a first alert from a 121 EPIRB even if received as the vessel cannot be identified and verified. However, if your 406 EPIRB is properly registered in a participating nation then you can rest assured that providing the EPIRB is actuated the alert will be acted upon no matter wherever the boat is at the time.

It would be much better if you just requested explanations rather than creating challenges hoping that gets you the answers you seek without showing your lack of knowledge. We went through all of this with SSB with your claiming calling forever for help in the Caribbean, people dying in your arms, etc, etc demonstrated that SSB was a waste of time. You seem to now understand that SSB can be a useful adjunct and I am sure that soon you will be claiming how useful 406 EPIRB's are due to the rapid rescues they result in.

However, if you wish to persist with your strange way then I am happy to assist you. However, to the relief of other forumites I am sure, it will have to end on Saturday as I am then scheduled to return to one of those third world countries which you assume that I have no practical experience in - when I get there would you like me to post a photo of the coconut trees, coral beach and islands I look out over from my apartment window /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

John
 
What a long post.

Of course other people, beside you, do understand how the 406 Epirb system works -

I am concerned you have so much faith in the efficacy of the system to the point you would not carry a grab bag and expect to be picked up before you get into your life raft! If you continue to sail, in your secure little corner of the Pacific, then you will be fine.

All I have tried to explain to you is that, world wide, your assumptions are optimistic. The risks you choose to take are the risks you choose to take. I can only alert you to the dangers, then shut up.

I am not certain which countries you refer to but I suspect they are Fiji, Tonga, Caledonia, Borneo, Solomons of that ilk - let me assure you they not 3rd world - I love them all dearly and have spent many happy times there. Sailed in and out of all all of them. Pretty well organised as well. The places I have already posted about would make your hair stand on end I suspect.

Be careful when you walk under palm trees = but then I am sure you know that!
fair winds and good luck,
Michael
 
Correction time again Michael, and you have now reverted to saying things for me to further your case /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

you would not carry a grab bag and expect to be picked up

Where have I ever said that?

I am not certain which countries you refer to but I suspect they are Fiji, Tonga, Caledonia, Borneo, Solomons of that ilk

Err, wrong again on all counts /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. A clue which must give you all the possible answers - it is not a participant in Cospas/Sarsat.

You are definitiely a trier, postulating as usual instead of asking, tut, tut.

John
 
John what are you so ashamed of? Life is so much easier if folks just say what they mean instead of setting puzzles? Its difficult to debate something honestly if you are not 'up front'.

You do give the impression of being a little parochial and that's not bad.
Not my problem - and when you venture into the wider world I am certain some of your views will change - or not..

fair winds

Michael
 
With kind permission

If it is ok by John and Michael, I would very much like to email a friend of mine a summary of the debate herin? (It would be for mentioning in an online forum for debating the merits of various technologies and reviewing the many brands.)

I think the two diametrically opposed views seen here would give many people cause for thought.

Thanks in advance, and for the heart felt viewpoints from both.

-S
 
Re: With kind permission

Hi Soong

I have no problem whatsoever with what you ask. I would suggest, however, that you would be best served by actually talking to the people directly involved in the operation of the system and in the searches and rescues that follow an alert.

In case not aware, it is the UKCG in UK and the RCC is Falmouth (they are the best people to talk to), Cospas/Sarsat operate the space - earth system and have a very good internet site http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/ which also has a "Contact Us" button for any queries.

As the system is shared by both aviation and marine you may get worthwhile comment from UK Civil Aviation Authority.

John
 
i worked in the gulf of suez back in the mid eighties on an offshore platform, channel 16 was unuseable, just solid wall to wall noise. different folk different culture. did several years in angola as well, the flight down could get quite bumpy near libreville, the thought of crashing was frightening, come down in tropical jungle? search and rescue? hmm, they could hardly keep the infrastructure up and running let alone rescue anyone. the thought of letting some of the week end sailors loose in third world countries with their preconcieved ideas that government agencies look after you?? ha ha ha
 
Re: With kind permission

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Soong

I have no problem whatsoever with what you ask. I would suggest, however, that you would be best served by actually talking to the people directly involved in the operation of the system...

[/ QUOTE ]

Cheers John, I will pass on the links and I am sure they will add them to the 'digest' of the debate.

-S
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Other threads that may be of interest

T
Notices to Mariners - Week 50
Replies
2
Views
768
tillergirl
T

Share this page

Top