What to do if your shaft seal leaks?

Rogershaw said:
I have fitted 2 different size PSS seals to two different boats I have owned. Both I purchased direct from PYI in the US. As I understand you purchased both yours from a chandler in Turkey, correct me if I an wrong. Both mine cane with fitting instructions which had the PYI logo on the instructions. Did you get the same type of instruction leaflet with yours. If you did NOT have such leaflet supplied it is then probable you were supplied with counterfeit and not genuine PSS seals and the reason neither PYI of Seaview would contact you.

Don't know the law in Turkey but in the UK your first point of claim would be against the chandler.
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Good evening:

These events happened a couple of years ago and I no longer remember the details on the instruction sheet that came with the seals however I can assure you that the seals were original and manufactured by PYI. At their request I forwarded the second seal to Seaview in France and I am sure they would have been quick to declare them fakes and certainly would not have asked the distributor in Istanbul to refund me the purchase price had their been any question of fakery being involved.

Since day one my interest has been in establishing what went wrong and why my seals failed and to determine if this might happen to other unsuspecting yachtmen/women.

I have had endless contacts with both Seaview and then PYI however I am of the opinion that they had no interest in providing this information and did everything to avoid answering direct questions I put to them.

I believe that any legal action would have to be taken against the local distributor however no one with less than many years to spare while he waits would bother with this route. In any case my interest has never been to receive any compensation beyond a refund of the cost of the seals - I wanted and still want information as to what caused the failure.

Cheers

Squeaky
 
I already told you what the likely cause of the failure was. That being, that the hose clip was partially unsupported by the carbon within the bellows. Consequently, it cut the bellows in a guillotine like action. It's not uncommon on all sorts of badly fitted hoses in all sorts of applications. The other cause of hoses being cut by clips is gross over-tightening. Based on your description, the former certainly seems to have occurred, the latter is a possibility which may have compounded the former.

Assuming it was genuine, why the carbon and bellows were mismatched is anyone's guess. Why there was an extra thickness of rubber between bellows and carbon is too. I rather suspect that the supplier didn't have a seal to suit your boats combination of shaft diameter and stern tube diameter, so cobbled something together from what they did have in stock. Sadly, this wasn't picked up on by your installer as they failed to inspect what they were fitting and reference it against the installation instructions, which would clearly have shown the absence of an additional rubber sleeve. On which point, if they didn't reference the instructions, how did they even know how far to compress the bellows?

If the correct components are installed in the correct manner, there is no reason the bellows should ever be cut. Save for the possibility of the rotor sticking to the cuff, which is warned about in the instructions, there isn't much that can cause the bellows to fail. Fit mismatched components, include rogue non-standard additional components and over-tighten clips, and damage may well be done.
 
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Squeaky said:
Good evening:

You certainly seem determined to blame anyone except PYI and Seaview for the seals I received. I had never seen a PSS seal before receiving these and I have no idea as to the installers experience with this seal so I don't accept that any blame should be attributed to him or myself for having installed what we were provided with by PYI or Seaview.

I don't see much point in continuing to debate this subject with you as nothing you post nor is any further attempt to blame anyone other then the manurfacturer or distributor for having provided me with two seals which failed catastophically is going to change the fact that I am of the opinion that PYI and/Seaview are guilty of selling a seal that was not fit for purpose.

If you are happy with you I suggest you use it and enjoy it as long as nothing goes wrong with it - when it goes wrong I hope you are on board to prevent it sinking.

Cheers

Squeaky
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Squeaky,

What you say works the other way round as well. There seems to be nothing that the protestations of others will do that would ever persuade you that PSS are a reputable company. Regardless of your claim that, "They would have said something if it wasn't a genuine PSS..." there is lots of evidence that either your seals weren't genuine or you or the yard didn't fit them very well.

There are two sides to every story and the number of people who are happy with their PSS seals is significant.

Regarding fitting:

My feeling is that fitting instructions are important, but an understanding and sympathy with what is trying to be achieved helps quite a lot.

Its easy for me to say, but I think I would have noticed if the carbon part wasn't long enough for two clips on the PSS seals I have fitted to my current boat and the previous boat. I believe that is what others have been trying to say as well. With the greatest of respect, it might be argued that alarms bells should have been ringing as you put the thing together as it didn't quite match up properly...
 
Lots of blame game, but no real answer to the OP. This is basically a simple device. So dear OP (Cindy) please provide more information. Once the boat was on the hoist, did you find crud in the seal faces? Was the bellows fully extended? Did the locking grub screws come loose and allow the rotor to move along the shaft? The latter is my guess, or perhaps the bellows just got old and tired. Was there sunlight on the bellows?

You dear OP, said "not easily accessible". This could be a recipe for failure.
 
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Simondjuk

john_morris_uk

Good morning Gentlemen:

I think it is about time that both of you come out of the closet and admit that you are employed by or otherwise representing PYI or Seaview.

Do you honestly expect members to believe that both of you have taken such an interest in this subject simply because of you don't have anything else to do at the moment.

I wonder if this sort of dishonesty a hallmark of PYI or Seaview - part of the company ethos? This sort of behavior certainly fits with my experience with these companies - do anything to obfuscate - ob·fus·cate
[ óbfə skàyt ]
make something obscure: to make something obscure or unclear, especially by making it unnecessarily complicated
confuse: to make somebody confused
Synonyms: obscure, complicate, confuse, muddy, cloud, mystify, muddle, befuddle, befog

I don't think anything further is to be gained by continuing this discussion under false pretensions.

The fact remains that TWO PSS seals which I was sold failed catastrophically - I wouldn't have purchased PSS seals had I had any suspicion that anything like this could happen and would have chosen a different seal as there are many different seals on offer.

Cheers

Squeaky

P.S I suspect that the explanation about mismatched components is valid however whose fault is that? It certainly was not my fault nor the fault of the man who installed the first seal. If this is the explanation, why did Seaview or PYI not own up and admit that there was a fault in their supply system?
 
Squeaky said:
The fact remains that TWO PSS seals which I was sold failed catastrophically - I wouldn't have purchased PSS seals had I had any suspicion that anything like this could happen and would have chosen a different seal as there are many different seals on offer.
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However, in the several days and many posts since the thread was started there has been ample opportunity for any other owners of failed PSS seals to come forward with their case histories. The reality is that none have, which surely tells us something?

In fact I know of two defects with the PSS, which may have a bearing on the OP and may be useful to others. Under some circumstances the face of the stainless steel rotor adjacent to the graphite ring may become pitted. It would seem that this may be due to galvanic corrosion if the seal is left for a long period without flushing seawater away. Backing the rotor off during winter ashore, or pouring fresh water down the vent tube if afloat, may help.
 
Squeaky,

I have nothing to do with PSS. My only connection is that I have bought some of their seals. I also sail a LOT of boats and frequently see and use PSS Seals on those boats. I think your tirade against PSS is slightly OTT. I am sorry that you had problems with the two seals you used, but as I have said before, I strongly suspect that there were other factors involved.

If you just said, "My experience has been..." I would have noted it and hoped others did the same and come to a balanced view however unfortunately you have used language such as, "If you use a PSS seal I hope your yacht doesn't sink..." several times which I think is emotive and unhelpful.

If you really want to know, I don't think PSS seals are perfect. I am happy to concede that PSS might have potential problems inasmuch as if the bellows fail catastrophically the ingress might only be stopped with something like rags bound tightly round with cable ties etc and one would lose the ability to motor.

However I also suggested that you are as dead set in your mind against PSS Seals that you are unwilling to entertain the suggestions that yours was either cobbled together or was a fake copy. Too many bits of your description don't match the experience of others fitting the seals and your claim that the local agent didn't say anything might just mean that it was them that was selling the fake ones and they didn't want to get caught buy the main manufacturer or regional supplier! Did you ask PSS in USA about your experience? Did you send them photo's of your 'PSS Seal'?

The only reason I take such an interest is that lots of people read these forums and I like there to be a balanced view.
 
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NormanS said:
Oh, I'm so glad that I have an old fashioned stuffing box.:)
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It's time you came clean and admitted you have shares and a place on the board of "Old Fashioned Stuffing Boxes Plc". It's clear that your unequivocal endorsement of them is motivated entirely by commercial considerations. I'm reporting you to 't management.
 
Lazy Kipper said:
It's time you came clean and admitted you have shares and a place on the board of "Old Fashioned Stuffing Boxes Plc". It's clear that your unequivocal endorsement of them is motivated entirely by commercial considerations. I'm reporting you to 't management.
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He's probably got shares in bilge pump manufacturers and water proof grease suppliers as well...
 
wilkinsonsails said:
This week move clients boat to travel hoist for a lift .She had not been moved for 18 months but engine had been run.Slightly awkward manoeuvre required lots of backing and filling to get her stern first into hoist on windy day.
Engine off waiting for slings .Found I was listening to sound of gushing water.
Usual rush to investigate such nasty noise .Revealed Pss shaft seal under engine (its a v drive)
Leaking between carbon ring and stainless quite high pressure ,Just visible through a letter box size aperture ,not easily accessible.Thank goodness she was being lifted ,can't instantly think of a solution to stop that sort of leak where it was .Any thoughts .?
Cindy
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To return to the original point, if the seal is mounted so that it cannot be easily reached or even closely inspected, and it starts to leak there may be nothing much you can do except lift the boat, or beach it before it sinks. Any seal that needs much maintenance is the wrong type to fit in such a place. I would suggest a change to a Volvo seal, though the latter needs "burping" when launched, and greasing occasionally. Even better may be the Eliche Radice seal, which is like the Volvo one but has a water feed and a greasing point; the former eliminates the need to burp it, and the latter makes greasing easier. On a sailing yacht it is not really necessary to provide a forced water feed, just take a tube well above heeled water level, and leave the end open.
 
vyv_cox said:
However, in the several days and many posts since the thread was started there has been ample opportunity for any other owners of failed PSS seals to come forward with their case histories. The reality is that none have, which surely tells us something?

In fact I know of two defects with the PSS, which may have a bearing on the OP and may be useful to others. Under some circumstances the face of the stainless steel rotor adjacent to the graphite ring may become pitted. It would seem that this may be due to galvanic corrosion if the seal is left for a long period without flushing seawater away. Backing the rotor off during winter ashore, or pouring fresh water down the vent tube if afloat, may help.
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Good morning:
I agree that this failure will not happen every time however it happened once which is enough to make me suspect that something was not right. I found it difficult to believe that I had been sold a real PYI produced seal however there is now no doubt in my mind that I got two original items as they have used every excuse except this to deny responsibility for the failure.

My original concern was that if this could happen to me it could happen to unsuspecting others and tried to learn how and why it happened but soon discovered that first Seaview and later PYI were not about to admit anything and their efforts were to obfuscate (definition above) or create red herrings hoping I would go away and leave them alone. This behavior, more than anything, has given me the impression that these are not people I want to deal with in the future as I doubt they would score very high on the "ethical behavior scale".

There are now two members commenting on this post whom I suspect, despite their denials, are involved with Seaview or PYI as their comments are very similar to the e-mails I received and attempt to place the blame on everyone else rather than admitting that their distribution system permitted the sale of unsuitable and/or cobbled together components. Have looked at the number of different sizes sold I can understand that mistakes could be made - however if so, why not "fess up" and admit them?

Looking back I wonder why I chose a seal with so many parts which could go wrong over a simple Volvo seal which is pretty straight forward and simple and any failure is unlikely to be as catastrophic as the failure of the PSS seal.

Cheers

Squeaky
 
Squeaky said:
Good morning:
..........
..There are now two members commenting on this post whom I suspect, despite their denials, are involved with Seaview or PYI as their comments are very similar to the e-mails I received and attempt to place the blame on everyone else rather than admitting that their distribution system permitted the sale of unsuitable and/or cobbled together components. Have looked at the number of different sizes sold I can understand that mistakes could be made - however if so, why not "fess up" and admit them?

Cheers

Squeaky
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The response of the manufacturers has indeed been poor.

However please do not lose the plot. In another post, you have already accused me of being in league with with the makers of the PSS. Random accusations will only cast a general doubt on your case.
 
Can I please stick my oar in here?

Obviously Squeeky had a very unfortunate experience which I followed on his original thread. No adequate explanation for his difficulties has been proven and thus he has one idea and others don't agree.

I fitted a PSS on one of my boats and found it properly engineered and very satisfactory. Why Squeeky's one was neither of these will probably forever remain a mystery but it seem wrong to condemn all PSS seals on the basis of this.

For the avoidance of doubt, I have no interest in any marine engineering company including PSS.
 
Good afternoon:

John_morris_uk: If you just said, "My experience has been..." I would have noted it and hoped others did the same and come to a balanced view however unfortunately you have used language such as, "If you use a PSS seal I hope your yacht doesn't sink..." several times which I think is emotive and unhelpful.

I am sorry if it appears that my sentence structure might be seen as "emotive" although I don't agree that it is "unhelpful" as I know that if I had read anything suggesting such a failure, which I would describe as catastrophic, I would not have purchased a PSS seal in the first place so I think my efforts are meant to warn other unsuspecting yachts owners of the possibility of this happening. It doesn't much matter to me that others have not had this experience, once in a thousand or even once in many thousands is still something to worry about.

However I also suggested that you are as dead set in your mind against PSS Seals that you are unwilling to entertain the suggestions that yours was either cobbled together or was a fake copy. Too many bits of your description don't match the experience of others fitting the seals and your claim that the local agent didn't say anything might just mean that it was them that was selling the fake ones and they didn't want to get caught buy the main manufacturer or regional supplier! Did you ask PSS in USA about your experience? Did you send them photo's of your 'PSS Seal'?

I did not deal with the Turkish distributor and first contacted Seaview (European distributor) and eventually sent them the second seal which I later regretted because I gave them the evidence which allowed them to beat me around the head and shoulders when I provided incorrect measurements from memory. Why they had to ask for these measurements I don't know as they had the seals in their possession however my mistaken memory allowed to them to claim that everything was my fault. I later contacted PYI and got the same run around. Had either of them been up front and admitted that a cock up had happened none of these posts would have been made however I am of the opinion that I was not provided with a seal fit for purpose and that Seaview and PYI have been evasive and unhelpful which suggests they are not concerned nor that they have taken action to prevent it happening to someone else.

I recall suggesting to PYI that their apparent method of providing components in bulk to Istanbul meant that some "backroom minion" would be tasked with the job of assembling the correct components and might easily make a mistake which resulted in a real "huffy" e-mail from PYI threatening to cease correspondence because of my less than flattering description of the staff in Istanbul.

I continue to wish anyone using this seal good luck however you will never catch me saying a good word about a seal that can and did fail so dramically and which is produced and sold by a company that is less than open and upfront when faced with a failure of their product.

Cheers

Squeaky
 
Simondjuk said:
I think I can see why communications became strained, if not almost impossible.
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Good afternoon:

Considering that your efforts seem to have been to confuse the issue, I shouldn't doubt it that you would find reason to say that you can understand why communication has become strained. Your efforts have a very familiar ring to those of Seaview and PYI so you have to forgive me if I become suspicious of intentions - the similarity is uncanny.

I am sure the average member will find this subject confusing however they should not lose track of the fact that the seal I was sold failed catastrophically and any they purchase could also do so.

Cheers

Squeaky
 
If you look at my website http://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/Sternglands.aspx you will see several photographs of other seals that failed catastrophically. These include several packed glands, Volvo, Tides Marine, lip seal types, etc. In each case they also were the result of abuse of some sort, not due to the design of the seal. Using your logic this means that all these types should be avoided as they might 'sink your boat.'
 
Or to take Vyv's example a step further, if you fit a heads outlet hose to a hose barb such that one of the clips is half on and half off the barb, then tighten the clip until it cuts the hose against the edge of the barb, are hose barbs of that type likely to sink your boat? No. The fact of the matter is that the fault lies not in the barb per se, but in its suitability for application and installation.

Or to put it yet another way, if a mechanic fitted brake pads to your car which were clearly the wrong shape and size for the calipers on your car, simply because they came in a box which said that they should be correct, I'm sure you'd be fairly annoyed when you suffered catastrophic brake failure. It might be that the brake pad manufacturer put them in the wrong box at the factory, or that they got swapped between boxes at the motor factors, but the buck stops with the mechanic. He should check that what he's fitting is suitable and correct, and if it quite obviously isn't, not fit it.

Frankly, you seem like a chap who gets an idea in his head and then hangs on to it regardless of what he's told. You seem utterly certain that I and others who have posted on this thread are in cahoots with PYI in spite having been repeatedly assured that nothing of the sort is true. Likewise, you will not accept that the components you fitted were incorrect in an entirety detectable way, yet were fitted regardless. Just like in the brake pad scenario above. Who is responsible for the supply error, I have no idea, but that error certainly doesn't mean that the PSS seal is inherently flawed in spite of what belief you're determined to hang on to. Likewise, as much as you want to imagine it's true, I never have and probably never will have any association with PYI.
 
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Squeaky said:
Simondjuk

john_morris_uk

Good morning Gentlemen:

I think it is about time that both of you come out of the closet and admit that you are employed by or otherwise representing PYI or Seaview.

Do you honestly expect members to believe that both of you have taken such an interest in this subject simply because of you don't have anything else to do at the moment.

I wonder if this sort of dishonesty a hallmark of PYI or Seaview - part of the company ethos? This sort of behavior certainly fits with my experience with these companies - do anything to obfuscate - ob·fus·cate
[ óbfə skàyt ]
make something obscure: to make something obscure or unclear, especially by making it unnecessarily complicated
confuse: to make somebody confused
Synonyms: obscure, complicate, confuse, muddy, cloud, mystify, muddle, befuddle, befog

I don't think anything further is to be gained by continuing this discussion under false pretensions.

The fact remains that TWO PSS seals which I was sold failed catastrophically - I wouldn't have purchased PSS seals had I had any suspicion that anything like this could happen and would have chosen a different seal as there are many different seals on offer.

Cheers

Squeaky

P.S I suspect that the explanation about mismatched components is valid however whose fault is that? It certainly was not my fault nor the fault of the man who installed the first seal. If this is the explanation, why did Seaview or PYI not own up and admit that there was a fault in their supply system?
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I have been reading these posts of yours for the last couple of days. You really need to step back and calm down! I have met JM in his working role, he makes no secret of it! If you havent worked it out you need to, and will then realise it has nothing to do with working for a mechanical seal company!
Stu
 
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