What to do if your shaft seal leaks?

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wilkinsonsails

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This week move clients boat to travel hoist for a lift .She had not been moved for 18 months but engine had been run.Slightly awkward manoeuvre required lots of backing and filling to get her stern first into hoist on windy day.
Engine off waiting for slings .Found I was listening to sound of gushing water.
Usual rush to investigate such nasty noise .Revealed Pss shaft seal under engine (its a v drive)
Leaking between carbon ring and stainless quite high pressure ,Just visible through a letter box size aperture ,not easily accessible.Thank goodness she was being lifted ,can't instantly think of a solution to stop that sort of leak where it was .Any thoughts .?
Cindy
 
Either the bellows needs resetting with the correct compression or there is a build up of deposits between the faces so they don't make a good seal.
 
Squeaky said:
Good morning:

The best solution is to get rid of the PSS seal before you end up having the same problem as I had with two of these seals. Full details are recorded beginning with post number 39 in this thread - http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?289854-PSS-Shaft-Seal-problems&highlight=PSS+Seals

Using a PSS seal could result in the loss of your yacht!!!!

Cheers

Squeaky
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But I believe the consensus of opinion is that what you had was not a PSS at all. Too many unusual features on yours, I think. My PSS is now in its 5, 6, 7th(?) season, no problems at all. Does help if you check it before launch, making sure you didn't back off the rotating collar last year and wetting the seal faces as recommended in the manual.
 
vyv_cox said:
But I believe the consensus of opinion is that what you had was not a PSS at all. Too many unusual features on yours, I think. My PSS is now in its 5, 6, 7th(?) season, no problems at all. Does help if you check it before launch, making sure you didn't back off the rotating collar last year and wetting the seal faces as recommended in the manual.
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I don't know who you included when you formed your "consensus" but certainly Seaview (European representatives) and PYI in the US did not think that the seals I was sold were anything but their seals. I am sure that they were anxious enough to say or do anything to re-direct any criticism that they would have trotted out this as an excuse if they thought they could have got away with it.

Cheers

Squeaky
 
Squeaky said:
I don't know who you included when you formed your "consensus" but certainly Seaview (European representatives) and PYI in the US did not think that the seals I was sold were anything but their seals. I am sure that they were anxious enough to say or do anything to re-direct any criticism that they would have trotted out this as an excuse if they thought they could have got away with it.

Cheers

Squeaky
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Whilst I have sympathy for your situation Squeaky, and obviously wasn't party to any conversations you had with the agents for PSS, I agree with Vyv. There were lots of factors pointing to whatever seal you had NOT being a genuine PSS seal. Our last two boats have had PSS seals and in ten years the only problem I have ever had was one squeaked a bit from time to time. Our good experience has been echoed by many others, so its a little harsh for you to say 'get rid if it before you lose the yacht.'

If I recall correctly you bought your from a chandler in a Turkey and even you wondered if you had been sold a faulty one or 'cheap copy'. The one in your pictures in the previous thread only vaguely looks like our PSS seal which us another reason I am wary of your pronouncement that PSS might '...sink your boat.'
 
Whether they were fake or not, they were certainly installed incorrectly. To tighten a hose clip which is obviously half on and half off the solid fitting within the hose, or in this case the bellows, is madness and almost guaranteed to result in a cutting action.
 
wilkinsonsails said:
This week move clients boat to travel hoist for a lift .She had not been moved for 18 months but engine had been run.Slightly awkward manoeuvre required lots of backing and filling to get her stern first into hoist on windy day.
Engine off waiting for slings .Found I was listening to sound of gushing water.
Usual rush to investigate such nasty noise .Revealed Pss shaft seal under engine (its a v drive)
Leaking between carbon ring and stainless quite high pressure ,Just visible through a letter box size aperture ,not easily accessible.Thank goodness she was being lifted ,can't instantly think of a solution to stop that sort of leak where it was .Any thoughts .?
Cindy
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As other have said it was probably crud between the two faces. It may well have settled with use.

The stainless ring could have slid back, as Tranona has said. Most folk fit a hose clamp behind it, as a double check.


I don't want to have a go at Squeaky who has had a very nasty experience and has taken a lot of trouble to report it to us.
However, if we accept the premise that the PSS seal is a flawed and unreliable design; the chances of two new, properly installed products failing at short notice is very, very remote.
It we accept that the PSS is generally well engineered and reliable, then the chances of identical, short term failures are astronomical. We may never find out what the real answer is.
 
Simondjuk said:
Whether they were fake or not, they were certainly installed incorrectly. To tighten a hose clip which is obviously half on and half off the solid fitting within the hose, or in this case the bellows, is madness and almost guaranteed to result in a cutting action.
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Good afternoon:

I would appreciate it if you would explain to me how one would know that a jubilee clip was half on and half off the carbon bit once it was on the shaft and in situ. I placed the jubilee clips on the seal in the two areas which clearly indicated where the clip were to be placed and later discovered that this aft one was half on and half off however this was after the seal had ripped and exposed the aft end of the carbon piece. There was certainly nothing obvious to indicate this prior to the failure.

I would also like to point out that the damage seal was returned to Seaview in southern France and they had no comments to suggest that the seal was anything but an original component which I am sure they would have done if my original suspicion that it was a fake had turned out to be true. I had no reason to suspect that it was a fake other than my normal suspicion that the world is full of people who will fake almost anything in order to make a quick quid plus I found it difficult to relate my experience with those reported by so many others concerning these seals.

I suggest anyone making any further suggestions that the failure of my seal was connected to it being a fake reconsider and note that the only person suggesting that fakery was involved was myself and certainly not Seaview or PYI.

I have said many times that if your PSS seal is working and you are happy with it that you should enjoy it while you can and hope that the failure I experienced does not happen to your seal. I still have no idea as to why it happened and neither Seaview nor PYI are about to tell me if they know. I think they know what happened and don't want to tell me in hopes that this matter will simply go away. Well, I have news for them as I don't intend to let the matter simply fade away as long as I can remember the night I spent pumping my bilge every 20-30 minutes to keep her afloat because of a PSS seal.

I have not used the Volvo seal very much and will be watching it carefully however I am still concerned that some other yachtsman may unknowingly receive a PSS seal similar to the one I received and end up losing their yacht. I certainly would have lost mine had I accepted an invitation to spend the evening and night ashore. Fortunately, by the way, at my age those invitations don't come all that often.

Cheers

Squeaky
 
wilkinsonsails said:
This week move clients boat to travel hoist for a lift .She had not been moved for 18 months but engine had been run.Slightly awkward manoeuvre required lots of backing and filling to get her stern first into hoist on windy day.
Engine off waiting for slings .Found I was listening to sound of gushing water.
Usual rush to investigate such nasty noise .Revealed Pss shaft seal under engine (its a v drive)
Leaking between carbon ring and stainless quite high pressure ,Just visible through a letter box size aperture ,not easily accessible.Thank goodness she was being lifted ,can't instantly think of a solution to stop that sort of leak where it was .Any thoughts .?
Cindy
Click to expand...

Second best looking boat in the Marina, beautiful lines, every time I passed it I had an urge to get cracking on the decks with Wessex magic cleaner.
 
Squeaky said:
Good afternoon:

I would appreciate it if you would explain to me how one would know that a jubilee clip was half on and half off the carbon bit once it was on the shaft and in situ. I placed the jubilee clips on the seal in the two areas which clearly indicated where the clip were to be placed and later discovered that this aft one was half on and half off however this was after the seal had ripped and exposed the aft end of the carbon piece. There was certainly nothing obvious to indicate this prior to the failure.
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You wouldn't know after fitting, but you would prior to fitting. The check is elementary. Compare the length of the reduced section of the carbon, intended to fit within the bellows, with the annular recesses in the bellows, intended to indicate the positioning of the Jubilee clips. If the former is shorter than the latter, something is wrong so don't fit it. Pretty simple really, yet your yard fitted the first in this state and, as I gather it, you the second. I've seen many of these seals, and never seen one supplied with dimensions which would allow such a thing could occur. If I were supplied one where it did, I'd surely spot it prior to fitting. I suggest that your yard are complacent and/or ignorant. A half on half off hose clip is the stuff of sheer bodgery.
 
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Simondjuk said:
You wouldn't know after fitting, but you would prior to fitting. The check is elementary. Compare the length of the reduced section of the carbon, intended to fit within the bellows, with the annular recesses in the bellows, intended to indicate the positioning of the Jubilee clips. If the former is shorter than the latter, something is wrong so don't fit it. Pretty simple really, yet your yard fitted the first in this state and, as I gather it, you the second. I've seen many of these seals, and never seen one supplied with dimensions which would allow such a thing could occur. If I were supplied one where it did, I'd surely spot it prior to fitting. I suggest that your yard are complacent and/or ignorant. A half on half off hose clip is the stuff of sheer bodgery.
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Good morning:

At last I see where I have gone wrong all these years - I have failed to check the design and engineering behind most of the items I have purchased. I have always assumed that the company which designed and sold various items knew what they were doing and would provide items which would preform the service for which they were sold. In future, I think I had better study anything I purchase and satisfy myself that the engineering and design meets the highest standards of contemporary engineering. Exactly what I will do if not satisfied, I am not sure as I could find myself without many of the items I feel I want and need.

I've seen many of these seals, and never seen one supplied with dimensions which would allow such a thing could occur. I don't think this is a statement that many yachtsmen could make as most would have seen one or two of these seals at best. You wouldn't, per chance, be a representative or employee of Seaview or PYI, would you???

Your efforts to pooh pooh my efforts or those of the first installer are admirable but unfortunately you were not there to give us the benefit of your years of experience and what happened happened and were the direct result of the design of the seal I was sold. I accept absolutely no responsibility for the failure of this seal but neither does Seaview nor PYI for that matter. Who and what was responsible for this cock up I am not sure but it sure the heck was not at this end.

Cheers

Squeaky

P.S I think someone should contact PYI and suggest they change their instructions to include the check suggested by Simondjuk above.
 
When I fit something below the waterline, I have a quick look over it first. If one end is clipped together already, I'd check it. I have the screwdriver in my hand to tighten the clips at the other end anyway, so why not? It's a moment's work. Similarly, I test inflate new lifejackets and check the cylinders are screwed in tightly.
 
Simondjuk said:
When I fit something below the waterline, I have a quick look over it first. If one end is clipped together already, I'd check it. I have the screwdriver in my hand to tighten the clips at the other end anyway, so why not? It's a moment's work. Similarly, I test inflate new lifejackets and check the cylinders are screwed in tightly.
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Good afternoon:

I think that most people would do the same however this is a long way from supporting your comment that: I suggest that your yard are complacent and/or ignorant. A half on half off hose clip is the stuff of sheer bodgery.

Notice also that you did not mention how it might have been that: I've seen many of these seals, and never seen one supplied with dimensions which would allow such a thing could occur

My suspicion remains that you are an "apologist" for PYI or Seaview therefore won't give much credit to your comments.

Fact are facts and the two seals I was sold failed catastophically after only a short time. Why? I have no idea and neither PYI nor Seaview are about to enlighten me so if your PSS seals works enjoy and count yourself lucky in the meantime I have no faith in them nor the company producing or distributing them.

Cheers

Squeaky
 
I work around boats, hence I see more of all components than the average boat owner. I do not have any association with PYI other than having seen many PSS seals, including one which I fitted to my previous boat, give years of perfectly good, safe service.

I have never seen one fail. I have never seen one on which the carbon did not extend past the insertion depth necessary for both clips to tighten onto it across their entire width. I have also most certainly never seen one which had an additional thickness of rubber inserted between bellows and carbon. Why anyone who knows remotely what they are doing would ever fit one with either of those issues, let alone both, I have no idea, yet your yard did so.

They overlooked two glaring oddities which should have been apparent to them and which led to the failure of the seal. The root cause of the failure, so as you finally have an idea, would seem to be a carbon mismatched to the bellows. Not the installers fault that he received that, but he most certainly should have noticed the obvious peculiarities and not gone ahead and fitted it.
 
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Simondjuk said:
I work around boats, hence I see more of all components than the average boat owner. I do not have any association with PYI other than having seen many PSS seals, including one which I fitted to my previous boat, give years of perfectly good, safe service.

I have never seen one fail. I have never seen one on which the carbon did not extend past the insertion depth necessary for both clips to tighten onto it across their entire width. I have also most certainly never seen one which had an additional thickness of rubber inserted between bellows and carbon. Why anyone who knows remotely what they are doing would ever fit one with either of those issues, let alone both, I have no idea, yet your yard did so.

They overlooked two glaring oddities which should have been apparent to them and which led to the failure of the seal. The root cause of the failure, so as you finally have an idea, would seem to be a carbon mismatched to the bellows. Not the installers fault that he received that, but he most certainly should have noticed the obvious peculiarities and not gone ahead and fitted it.
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Good evening:

You certainly seem determined to blame anyone except PYI and Seaview for the seals I received. I had never seen a PSS seal before receiving these and I have no idea as to the installers experience with this seal so I don't accept that any blame should be attributed to him or myself for having installed what we were provided with by PYI or Seaview.

I don't see much point in continuing to debate this subject with you as nothing you post nor is any further attempt to blame anyone other then the manurfacturer or distributor for having provided me with two seals which failed catastophically is going to change the fact that I am of the opinion that PYI and/Seaview are guilty of selling a seal that was not fit for purpose.

If you are happy with you I suggest you use it and enjoy it as long as nothing goes wrong with it - when it goes wrong I hope you are on board to prevent it sinking.

Cheers

Squeaky
 
I have fitted 2 different size PSS seals to two different boats I have owned. Both I purchased direct from PYI in the US. As I understand you purchased both yours from a chandler in Turkey, correct me if I an wrong. Both mine cane with fitting instructions which had the PYI logo on the instructions. Did you get the same type of instruction leaflet with yours. If you did NOT have such leaflet supplied it is then probable you were supplied with counterfeit and not genuine PSS seals and the reason neither PYI of Seaview would contact you.

Don't know the law in Turkey but in the UK your first point of claim would be against the chandler.
 
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