Concerto
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you should read post #208.
What they don't tell you about production boats
- Thread starter geem
- Start date
pvb
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the link; I remember seeing that thread. There was very little in it about keel problems. One poster said "There was a well publicised episode when one dropped its keel with fatal consequences but that was a very specific design issue with one model and none of the mass production Bavs seemed to suffer from it."
Another poster said "I don't understand where the knockers get the idea that Bavs are lightly built. They probably heard it from a bloke down the pub who knew someone whose second cousin said that ...... you get the idea. Like for like, Bavarias are not at all light, and once you have taken off all the clutter that is the same on any boat, that weight is in the structure. Which is why they readily take the bashing that we dish out to them."
And perhaps a relevant quote is "The keel failure of one type of performance Bavaria model was a gift to the critics. The sensible posts by experienced sailors like Robin mentioning a number of serious faults with British build boats were conveniently ignored by the prejudiced Bav basher."
Rappey
Well-Known Member
I watched a 40ft ish bavaria, around 15 - 20 years old t- bone a 4m wide marina pontoon around 5knts.
It wrote off the pontoon, bending the fairly substantial chassis and destroying the hardwood edges.
The bavaria itself just had some slight scuff marks on the bow and as far as I'm aware didn't suffer any immediate damage.
His throttle jammed so his split second decision was hit another boat or the pontoon.
It wrote off the pontoon, bending the fairly substantial chassis and destroying the hardwood edges.
The bavaria itself just had some slight scuff marks on the bow and as far as I'm aware didn't suffer any immediate damage.
His throttle jammed so his split second decision was hit another boat or the pontoon.
dankilb
Well-Known Member
Much as I love Westerlys - my extended family has had the same Berwick in our procession since new in 1979 - I don’t think they are a marque to hold up in this debate, not least because they are still ‘production boats’ with the same attendant design/build processes and therefore the same potential issues...
Taking this image as an example, from this I am happy to state the ‘my Jeanneau is better built’. Specifically, my boat’s structural floors run fore-aft as well as laterally (‘beams’ as well as ‘stringers’ the right term?). Our chainplates are also mounted in such a way that they are all accessible, rather than hidden behind furniture like Westerlys did.
“My boat is better than yours then...?”. No, not at all. More likely Jeanneau (in 1989 when ours was laid up) had learned from Westerly’s and others’ processes and developed upon them. They got plenty of other stuff wrong in the design/build, don’t worry there! But just definitely not how the keel attaches to the floors!
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
and Jousters. BTDTGTTS.
pvb
Well-Known Member
catlotion
Well-Known Member
I did a little research before buying my 2006 Bavaria 30 Cruiser. I couldn't really find any substantiated claims to support the bashers (apart from the Match issue). However, the most compelling evidence for the brand's build and suitability for me was watching a few of Patrick Laine's great videos on YouTube.... (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEZSvXwSH6flqA0q_EEDDBQ) - I'm just an inland sailor though! 
Bobc
Well-Known Member
Yes, he's been all over the place on his Bavaria and the keel hasn't fallen of yet.I did a little research before buying my 2006 Bavaria 30 Cruiser. I couldn't really find any substantiated claims to support the bashers (apart from the Match issue). However, the most compelling evidence for the brand's build and suitability for me was watching a few of Patrick Laine's great videos on YouTube.... (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEZSvXwSH6flqA0q_EEDDBQ) - I'm just an inland sailor though!
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC
Well-Known Member
So far there has been a critique on Bavarias, Island Packets, Westerlys, Jeanneau, Hanse and others, but no one has picked on the Moodys. I am sure Moodys have screwed up somewhere too.
Rappey
Well-Known Member
Maybe the moody owners have kept their heads down? Only flaw, nothing big that i can think of is chainplates built in behind joinery so hard to check.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Moody keel bolts (or nuts), mild steel with big square, mild steel washers, they go as rusty as a horseshoe. I poked some nuts on a 36cc a couple of years ago and with almost no effort reduced the size of the nut by 6mm or more. Can't say as i've heard of one losing its keel though.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
When checking my facts before posting I tried to find a list of all the classes that Bavaria have built. Nothing on their web site except current build classes. Tried the UK owners association web site - nothing. Are they not proud of all the fleet? There is no advice I could find to assist potenial second hand buyers.Careful! The Westerly thought police will be after you...
The Westerly web site by comparrison has a tab featuring every class they have built in size order.
Westerly Classes - Westerly-Wiki
Each class has details of the boat, a few still require more details and photographs, but this is the Fulmar.
Fulmar - Westerly-Wiki
One of the page links is for Maintenance and Repair.
Fulmar Maintenance and Repair - Westerly-Wiki
Would you believe it, it mentions the keel rib problem and potential deck lift by the cap shrouds.
In the Centaur web pages is this 5 page document on what to check when buying a Centaur.
https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/f/f6/CENTAUR_PURCHASE_ADVICE.pdf
The Griffon had keel problems and this is mentioned in this web page.
The Griffon and Fulmar - Westerly-Wiki
So where do you find these "Westerly thought police"?
Being so open about what problems have been means owners and potential buyers can easily find this out from the reliable source of the Westerly Owners web site rather from a forum poster like you pvb as you continually winge on about Westerly keel problems at every opportunity.
pvb
Well-Known Member
That's untrue, and you should withdraw the allegation.
I'm probably one of the few posters on these forums who's actually bought a brand-new Westerly yacht. In fact, I've bought not one, but three brand-new Westerly yachts.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
I already knew that. However I continually see you mention the keel problems on Westerly boats that are over 40 years old and virtually all will have been repaired by now.
This whole thread is about the damage done due to the bonded keel rib construction of modern boats. The original video shows quite clearly that not all modern boats are as strongly built as they should be to withstand a grounding.
In post #157 I used a comparison of modern designs to my 40 year old Fulmar and how design has progressed. I feel that was a balanced view. It was wully1 who mentioned the Fulmar keel rib in post #206 and I replied in post #208. In post #210 you then stuck your oar in about other Westerly classes that had keel problems, something that has no relevance to this thread. May be I should ask a Moderator to review your posts.
As far as I am concerned this discussion about Westerly keels in this thread should end now as it has no relevance to the thread.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Bobc
Well-Known Member
Funny isn't it, how this thread has managed to turn into a Bavaria vs Westerly slag-fest, when the original boat in question is a Hanse.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
There was me thinking that Hanse were supposed to be better built than Bavaria. It is a shame the thread got away from the main point of the problems that can and do happen with keel ribs that are inadequately bonded. They are used for strengthening the hull shape and locating bulkheads and pre-assembled furniture for speedy production. In theory they should, and for many owners, seem to work adequately. However they are still not fully engineered to withstand the common problem of running aground. How much extra would it cost to stop this rib breakdown compard to the cost of repairs? In the general cost of a new yacht it would be only a small single digit percentage.
It is almost as though the manufacturers are building to a set lifespan so their yachts will be scrapped to induce more sales in the future. The worst part of this is there is no prefered method of recycling old yachts. Does this mean that they may get destroyed and sent to landfill in the developed world or just dumped elsewhere in the world? I know France has set up a chain of sites for disposal of old boats, but it is for the final owner to pay or who ever owns where it has been left.
Returning to the Westerly vs Bavaria theme. Westerly built 12,500 yachts over 40 years. In 2006 Bavaria built 3,500 boats a year, so at 10 times the number the Westerly ever built per year. The current number built is smaller after they suffered financal problems - typical of virtually every boat builder at some time. Bavaria Yachts: charting their fall and rise - Sailing Today Then if we consider all the other builders, it makes you start wondering where all the boats are being berthed. The Med, Caribbean and the Far East seem to be the market for charter boats. I wonder how this business model will hold up in the current Covid19 world of restricted travel for a number of years. I will predict we shall have a number of big manufacturers either shrink rapidly or go bust.
It is almost as though the manufacturers are building to a set lifespan so their yachts will be scrapped to induce more sales in the future. The worst part of this is there is no prefered method of recycling old yachts. Does this mean that they may get destroyed and sent to landfill in the developed world or just dumped elsewhere in the world? I know France has set up a chain of sites for disposal of old boats, but it is for the final owner to pay or who ever owns where it has been left.
Returning to the Westerly vs Bavaria theme. Westerly built 12,500 yachts over 40 years. In 2006 Bavaria built 3,500 boats a year, so at 10 times the number the Westerly ever built per year. The current number built is smaller after they suffered financal problems - typical of virtually every boat builder at some time. Bavaria Yachts: charting their fall and rise - Sailing Today Then if we consider all the other builders, it makes you start wondering where all the boats are being berthed. The Med, Caribbean and the Far East seem to be the market for charter boats. I wonder how this business model will hold up in the current Covid19 world of restricted travel for a number of years. I will predict we shall have a number of big manufacturers either shrink rapidly or go bust.
pvb
Well-Known Member
May I refer you to post 220...
UK-WOOZY
Well-Known Member
even though my boat is a small boat, it gives me confidence reading about Jeanneau in the previous posts. mine just has glassed in ribs to the hull. quite a shallow bilge too
this was in 2019, unbeknown to me there was a hairline crack in the hull under the waterline caused by the bad support in the original yard nearly 2 years prior. luckily it was still dry inside. though i did notice flex over the area when working on the engine but thought it was just my footware flexing. only came across the crack last year after the sandblasting.
this was in 2019, unbeknown to me there was a hairline crack in the hull under the waterline caused by the bad support in the original yard nearly 2 years prior. luckily it was still dry inside. though i did notice flex over the area when working on the engine but thought it was just my footware flexing. only came across the crack last year after the sandblasting.
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Bobc
Well-Known Member
Just looking at various videos on YouTube, and it appears that Jeaneau/Beneteau are also using bonded-in grids in their boats now.
So I think you can safely assume that pretty-much all of the volume European builders are using this technique, and as such, all will suffer the same problems if grounded hard.
So I think you can safely assume that pretty-much all of the volume European builders are using this technique, and as such, all will suffer the same problems if grounded hard.
