What they don't tell you about production boats

Reading this thread is a bit like observing a group of people discussing which is the best chocolate teapot.

These lightweight AWBs are designed for fairweather marina hopping and racing round the cans. For more arduous conditions something more rugged would be preferable wouldn't it?
 
TernVI said:
I think 80s GRP yachts got a way with a lot of impacts, precisely because they were not very rigid. Sigma 33's survived the most horrendous abouse, but don't try closing the bog door when it's being sailed hard. Giving a wooden boat that kind of abuse would have been expensive.
These days, it's supposed to be a non-contact sport.
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Not very rigid? Certainly not my experience with four 1980s boats. I'm quite happy with my old tech low aspect keel to accept the bumping we get with wash on fall of tide when drying out alongside and all doors open and close OK. Not something I would want to do with a modern high aspect keel with bonded grid, which is less likely to survive impact damage.
 
Tranona said:
Don't let all this negativity put you off.
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Car forums are the same though, people post problems. It's rare for a thread to be started about how brilliant a car is, but is no indication of the vast majority that have no problems.
I think it's good to know where weaknesses may lie and these threads provide information to make your own decision.
 
Bobc said:
Not strictly true. If an insurer sees this as being a problem with a particular type, make, or year of boat, they will increase the premium on these boats accordingly, not across the board for all boat types.

In the same way that cover for the Caribbean has increased because of recent increased hurricane activity (such as Irma), but it has not increased premiums for boats in Europe.
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Not sure that is the case. Damage of this type is a tiny proportion of the cost of insurers' claims and there really is not (unlike cars) any mechanism for adjusting premiums on the basis of specific boat models or even builders. The First 40.7 Cheeky Rafiki case identified only 17 insurance claims for damage resulting from grounding - out of nearly 1000 boats built to the design. Almost all of these were being raced, which would inevitably paid higher premiums and all were repaired successfully. The main discriminating factors for varying premiums are type of use, location of use, type of mooring and for some, factors related to a specific passage such as cross Biscay or the hurricane season. Equally some types of claim can be identified as being potentially large such as loss of mast and rigging and therefore tend to attract specific conditions. Other than that the only thing about the boat the insurer is interested in is the value as that is the limit of their financial risk under the hull and machinery element of the policy. They could not care less whether your £100k boat is a Hanse or a Bavaria, or an HR, or even its method of construction if a "normal" production boat. Doubt that owners of boats with steel grids or double skinned with foam such as Etaps or Sadlers get reduced premiums.

Insurance is about pooling risk and keel damage is so rare (in relation to other claims and the number of boats in the pool) it is easily absorbed into the risk pool. I suspect that the claims for storm damage on the east coast this weekend will dwarf all claims this year for damage from grounding.
 
In the vid of girasole they show their grid which was originally laminated to the hull. In Italy a company took off the keel due to a little leak from one bolt. Perhaps they used to much force and therefor the grid came off the hull for some inches and the laminate broke. At the Capverdes the owners noticed movement from the keel and did grinding and relaminating. Don't do it the same way! The skipper became ill a few weeks later with an immunarthritis and they had to sell their boat in the carabbean.
Sorry for my poor english, I'm an old german
Klaus
 
Chae_73 said:
I understood "delamination" but not a great deal more. Anyone able to summarise what's happened in that video?
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Looks like a few places of the laminate between the grid stringers and the hull have delaminated. I suspect that the boat has been dropped on the keel a bit too hard.
 
Klausen said:
In the vid of girasole they show their grid which was originally laminated to the hull. In Italy a company took off the keel due to a little leak from one bolt. Perhaps they used to much force and therefor the grid came off the hull for some inches and the laminate broke. At the Capverdes the owners noticed movement from the keel and did grinding and relaminating. Don't do it the same way! The skipper became ill a few weeks later with an immunarthritis and they had to sell their boat in the carabbean.
Sorry for my poor english, I'm an old german
Klaus
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That would explain things. The keels are glued on with Plexus and take quite an amount of grunt to get off, so that's probably what caused the delamination.
 
Klausen said:
In the vid of girasole they show their grid which was originally laminated to the hull. In Italy a company took off the keel due to a little leak from one bolt. Perhaps they used to much force and therefor the grid came off the hull for some inches and the laminate broke. At the Capverdes the owners noticed movement from the keel and did grinding and relaminating. Don't do it the same way! The skipper became ill a few weeks later with an immunarthritis and they had to sell their boat in the carabbean.
Sorry for my poor english, I'm an old german
Klaus
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Thanks Klaus, your English is good and way better than my non existent German!

Sad to hear that the skipper became ill and had to sell up - he looks quite young if that's him in the video.
 
Klausen said:
In the vid of girasole they show their grid which was originally laminated to the hull. In Italy a company took off the keel due to a little leak from one bolt. Perhaps they used to much force and therefor the grid came off the hull for some inches and the laminate broke. At the Capverdes the owners noticed movement from the keel and did grinding and relaminating. Don't do it the same way! The skipper became ill a few weeks later with an immunarthritis and they had to sell their boat in the carabbean.
Sorry for my poor english, I'm an old german
Klaus
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Sehr Gut English Klaus, you have no need to apologise.

My German improved dramaticaly during a two week stay in the Muhldorf Krankenhause.

Ich Dumkopf - ich farhen links..............................
 
Yes, that's the owner! He and his wife didn't wear good breathing masks when working with acetone, grinding and applying glass and epoxy.
 
Klausen said:
In the vid of girasole they show their grid which was originally laminated to the hull. In Italy a company took off the keel due to a little leak from one bolt. Perhaps they used to much force and therefor the grid came off the hull for some inches and the laminate broke. At the Capverdes the owners noticed movement from the keel and did grinding and relaminating. Don't do it the same way! The skipper became ill a few weeks later with an immunarthritis and they had to sell their boat in the carabbean.
Sorry for my poor english, I'm an old german
Klaus
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Welcome to the forum, your English its really good and thank you for your message. Its good to see our German friends joining this forum.
 
Klausen said:
Yes, that's the owner! He and his wife didn't wear good breathing masks when working with acetone, grinding and applying glass and epoxy.
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The fantastic NZ Racing Motorbike designer John Britten worked with early carbon fibre, making much of his motorbike with it, including the wheels.

It is believed the cancers that took him far too early were caused by working with carbon fibre and resins without adequate protection from dust and fumes. :(
 
Chae_73 said:
I understood "delamination" but not a great deal more. Anyone able to summarise what's happened in that video?
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Yes, the shell and the grid have separated over all floors in the way of the keel by about a quarter inch. Essentially, the keel is now suspended from the shell of the hull alone, as, though there appears to be some tabbing, only about a 3/4" of this is still holding on to the hull.
According to the speaker/owner, this was not caused by grounding, but is the result of the yard pulling off the keel to re-bed it.

Edit: Sorry, Klaus, just saw your post. Too late, again ... Wer zu spaet kommt, den bestraft das Leben!
 
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Laminar Flow said:
Yes, the shell and the grid have separated over all floors in the way of the keel by about a quarter inch. Essentially, the keel is now suspended from the shell of the hull alone, as, though there appears to be some tabbing, only about a 3/4" of this is still holding on to the hull.
According to the speaker/owner, this was not caused by grounding, but is the result of the yard pulling off the keel to re-bed it.

Edit: Sorry, Klaus, just saw your post. Too late, again ... Wer zu spaet kommt, den bestraft das Leben!
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You have to wonder how, pulling the keel off of the outside of the hull would delaminate the grid from the inside of the hull.

I'd also be wondering if the yard dropped the boat on its keel.
 
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