What they don't tell you about production boats

[roblpm]

Much longer than 10 years. As long as the hull, deck and keel are good the rest can be replaced when needed keeping the boat going.

But at what cost?! Is it cost effective? I wonder! OK who has bought a 40 year old boat recently and re engined it, new sails etc etc. That's already say £12k on a 25k fulmar. And you immediately have a boat that is worth 25k resale. I have done this before..... ? Well not quite that but spent quite a lot on a 1990 boat, got it to a nice standard and sold for slightly less than I bought....

 

[roblpm]

OK and while I am on a roll, there must be a generation of AWBs where they laminated the grid in etc etc A golden age....?! ?

 

[Tranona]

But I think the purchase price of these new or used say up to 20 years old is radically different to the inflation adjusted price of the boats that people are talking about say like the fulmar above.

What is a pauper to do. I suggest it was easier to be a pauper 20 years ago if you wanted a sub 20 year old non AWB?

Don't let all this negativity put you off. The heyday of volume mass production was about 1995-2008 in the under 40' size range. You have a huge choice of different types of boats that until recently were available in great volume on the secondhand market. These are odd times. There are very few later model boats on the market now. The first reason is slightly historic in that 2016 until 2020 saw many boats being sold to Europe because of the cheap £ and from the sellers' point of view the political uncertainty. Secondly the new boat market was slow meaning trade ins dropped. However now restrictions mean that both buyers and sellers are planning for more UK leisure time so demand is going up and supply falling resulting in hardening prices.

Leaving that side, the UK boat park still gives you a potential choice of many good boats from bread and butter family cruisers from Bavaria, Beneteau Oceanis, Jeanneau, or if you want more performance the First or Sun versions. More performance orientated brands are Elan, Dehler, Dufour, Hanse for example. All of these boats have sold well in the UK and been well received by their owners. This is what you should be looking at rather than going back another 10-20 years for the flavour of those times. Few from that era sold in volumes like more recent boats so the choice is limited and the extra years means the quality is far more variable.

If I recall your budget is £50k. Even with the current limited number on the market this will buy you a very satisfactory 32- 36' or so from the early 2000s. Forget all the stuff about whether the grid is laminated or not. Look at the boat for what it is. Despite what the doomongers here suggest , boats are not falling apart in the way they claim. Boats do get damaged, and some stand up to damage better than others - but the vast majority never get damaged at all. By concentrating on the tiny number that do get damaged, these people are not seeing the vast majority that don't. There is always an explanation for damage that you often don't see from the snap shots posted here. When have you ever considered how well a car stands up to damage when buying one? Do you look at the construction of it, ask for the repair costs, or even know the NCAP rating of your car?

As you will see, through all the fog and negativity on this thread there hides a large number of people of all persuasions who are very happy with their boats. Very few express any dissatisfaction or feel they made the wrong choice.. Getting down from the daydreaming of your ideal boat to actually buying it is a long process, but I am sure you will find that once you get to the point of actually having the money and start looking it will all become clear and the right boat will jump out at you.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Most new AWBs bought in the UK arrived here by road on a low-loader, sitting on their keels, with struts to give lateral support. My boat rumbled its way on a low-loader for 750 miles, without sustaining damage.

A lot of them also arrive sans keel, as a separate item for later installation.

And, not to concern you too much: after about 1 000 000 stress cycles, the strength of an osphalic resin laminate is reduced by 50%. Micro fractures, the precursor to delamination, occur much sooner. I have no idea, of course, how many such stress cycles a boat might go through, "rumbling" it's way over from North Germany. According to several of my sources, stress fatigue is a concern in boats intended for long distance cruising and remedial measures are recommended to address that.

I do believe that yard operators have every right to be concerned, as for legal reasons they "own" the boat from the moment it touches the lift or ways to the point it is properly set up. If the boat was improperly supported, they are liable for any damage that causes as well.

 

[Tranona]

A lot of them also arrive sans keel, as a separate item for later installation.

That occurs not because of concern about stresses on the keel or hull, but for the simple reason of air draft to clear bridges. Boat transporters carry keel boats all over Europe without removing keels. Have a look at the trailers they use and you can see why they do not experience problems. Of course once you get above about 40' with today's deep draft keels and high freeboard, more boats exceed the air draft limits when on trailers so are shipped without keels as are those going by sea to reduce cubage and allow them to sit safely on deck cradles. Give builders transporters and dealers some credit for understanding these issues and taking the necessary steps to ensure that boats do not get damaged in transit.

Anybody from outside reading this thread would never buy a boat given all the problems of crap design, bad quality, catastrophic damage, stresses that don't seem to catered for and so on that seem endemic in the boat building industry. Maybe they thought it was all about enjoying oneself out on the water on a wonderful product of human genius. I am amazed at how many here seem so miserable and and negative, spending time finding fault with anything that does not fit their world view. Perhaps in an unseen product of Covid and it will be all right once they get the jab. I have had mine, so I am OK.

 

[Laminar Flow]

But at what cost?! Is it cost effective? I wonder! OK who has bought a 40 year old boat recently and re engined it, new sails etc etc. That's already say £12k on a 25k fulmar. And you immediately have a boat that is worth 25k resale. I have done this before..... ? Well not quite that but spent quite a lot on a 1990 boat, got it to a nice standard and sold for slightly less than I bought....

We have. If you want to retrieve your investment, then buy gold or antique watches or something else along those lines.
Spread out over our 12 years of ownership, we have spent considerably less per annum on upgrades and renovations than we have on moorage.
Since we bought her I have replaced the engine and diesel tank, given her new sails, changed the rig and added a bowsprit, replaced all the electronics, added a solar charging system, changed and replaced parts of her interior, removed and resealed all of her 18 ports and windows, added a hatch and made considerable modifications to her deadwood and rudder.
This was made feasible as I have the skills required. Even though we live on the other side of the world and the time working on her comes out of our cruising time, we still managed to cruise, on average, some 1300 - 1400 miles each season. I enjoy the planning aspect and the actual work as well; it is part of boat ownership to me, always has been.
Is it worth it? I could not buy a new or even newish boat like her today; they are simply not built anymore. The closest would be a new Fisher 34; she would not sail as well as our upgraded tub and I would have to start all over again to make her. Not that I would not fancy the challenge, but I simply could not afford the 450,000 pounds to get into the game, even if I auctioned off both my kidneys and my liver ( though I'd have to lay off the rouge for a while to make sure the latter would be in a pristine and marketable condition).

 

[Rappey]

But at what cost?! Is it cost effective

It may already have a decent engine or sails. Don't assume every old boat has been fully neglected until it's sold. Many were so well built with high end parts and likely not much needs replacing.
The cost is spread over time ,may not be any cheaper in the long run but avoids having to take out a loan.
Many fix up their own boats and that saves a huge amount of money as labour can cost a lot more than materials.
One sector that has hugely improved with modern design are catamarans. Those huge cockpits and main salon that appear to be as one.
If I had 450k I could be tempted and throw any caution to the wind.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Anybody from outside reading this thread would never buy a boat given all the problems of crap design, bad quality, catastrophic damage, stresses that don't seem to catered for and so on that seem endemic in the boat building industry. Maybe they thought it was all about enjoying oneself out on the water on a wonderful product of human genius. I am amazed at how many here seem so miserable and and negative, spending time finding fault with anything that does not fit their world view. Perhaps in an unseen product of Covid and it will be all right once they get the jab. I have had mine, so I am OK.
[/QUOTE]

Now, now, while it is true that I resent being caged in by Covid, I do not think that I am at all a negative type. Considering, I did buy a 40 year old boat in need of serious attention and one with a, somewhat, justified reputation that it could not sail it's way out of a paper bag in a gale if it tried. I mean, what dyed in the wool pessimist would do such a fool thing? Even when I head out across some open body of water, including oceans, I do so in the firm conviction that I will manage anything that might go wrong on the way and that I will arrive at the other side and in due course. Maybe that is overly blue-eyed, but it does give the crew, falsely perhaps, a degree of confidence that their cracked captain will get them there, safely.

I have absolutely no beef with any particular brand, keel configuration, rig, decks layout or building method, material or what have you and, if a certain boat would meet my needs, I'm sure I might buy it. I am also supremely confident that I would be able to deal with any issues it might have.

But, that is not how this thread started. It started with a vid showing the near catastrophic results of a grounding. I'm not sure how his insurance company felt about it, but the damage must have been in the neighbourhood of 40. 000 Euro or more, never mind that the owner was not able to use his expensive asset for two years and, additionally, his loss of income from not being able to charter her out. We might also assume that if the boat hadn't been new or nearly so, it might have well been considered a write-off.

And then we, as usual, got into the "my skin is thicker than yours" argument and some predictable Bavaria bashing, which I'd like to point out, I never take part in ...

Now, and in spite of the knowledge that, as any Hanse owner will happily assure us, their boats are super fast, I doubt very much that this particular grounding victim was traveling much, if at all, above nominal hull speed. Properly built, she should have survived with a bruise on her keel and an awkward brown stain in the owner's underwear. She didn't.

I have no particularly "negative" feelings about that; I take notice of the fact she obviously hit something hard and that the method of grid attachment didn't stand up to the relevant forces of the impact.

The advice to avoid hitting the bottom is probably a good one, though I doubt that is always useful, as the fewest groundings are intentional in nature.

 

[geem]

Exactly my point. The costs of buying a now 40 year boat are escalating I would suggest. So maybe 1995 is the perfect year! ?

You might be right. We are currently doing a refit on ours. We are taking advantage of being back in the UK to have the whole boat resprayed in Awlgrip, new toerail, new floorboards, new rigging, etc she is like a classic car and we have agreed with the insurance company to have a guaranteed value policy?

 

[Chae_73]

OK and while I am on a roll, there must be a generation of AWBs where they laminated the grid in etc etc A golden age....?! ?

The pre-Hanse Dehlers have a reputation for being well put together, and good sailing boats. I think Hanse acquired Dehler around 2009.

 

[Bobc]

OK and while I am on a roll, there must be a generation of AWBs where they laminated the grid in etc etc A golden age....?! ?

My 2003 Bavaria has the grid laminated into the hull.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I have tried to not contribute as I am not a lover of the grid system. The idea of bonding the matrix solely to the hull with a rigid adhesive seems mad. My fear is that too much emphasis is placed by accountants to build as cheaply as possible. Although keel matrix bonded in have been used for several decades as part of the drive to build to a "just" adequate standard, I still feel there will be an increasing number of matrix failures. On the other hand you have to admire the automation that is use to create the original moulds, cutting the mat to shape, and cut openings for windows and fittings. We also have to look at the Recreational Craft Directive and realise it really does not set any particular high standrds for structural integrity of the hull. Too many people new to yachting seem to think this has raised standards, in my opinion there were too many manufacturers pressing for the lowest minimum to keep boats cheap and like an almost a disposable asset. Comments about longer term maintenance being difficult for subsequent owners being dismissed as not the builder's problem is so wrong.

Many of the modern designs do satisfy many customers with roomy accomodation that is definitely designed for being comfortable whilst in in harbour. However many are not what a traditionalist like me would call a good sea boat. This covers things like a relaxed ride in rougher water compared to a bouncy ride and slamming, how easy is it to use the loo (especially for ladies), handholds within the cabin and being free from water slap whilst anchored, moored or berthed. A lot of the mass produced designs are designed to sail flatter, but the ballasting is so light and more reliant on form stability, that the sail plan is a lot reduced compared to older designs. My Fulmar has a very tall mast, taller than normal as it is ¾ rigged, but at only 32ft LOA it is far taller than modern 32 footers and frquently taller than modern 36 to 38 ft yachts. At the same time I regularly outsail longer yachts, but that could be due to their poor ability to maximise their performance, so many of them comment I have a fast boat.

In the 40 years since my Fulmar was designed there have been a lot of improvements that make sailing easier. Having all halyards and controls led aft, usually in recessed channels rather than across the deck. Having sizeable toilet compartments with a shower is no longer a luxury. Fridges, freezers and microwaves make the galley almost like a floating home from home. There have also been improvements in some of the materials used like the resin, kevlar, carbon fibre and woven mat. The introduction of the sail drive makes fitting an engine a lot quicker than a shaft drive. The swim platform with walk through transom can make it easier to board for a dinghy or if you go swimming.

The trend of increasing beam being brought further aft certainly increases hull volume, but the downside has meant twin rudders have to be fitted to retain control as the stern lifts as the yacht heals due to the lack of buoyancy forward. This now adds the problem that you can no longer use prop wash to help berth a boat. One solution to increase control is the fitting of bow thrusters. The increase in freeboard has 2 problems, firstly the wind can catch the boat wholst berthing and secondly makes berthing stern to almost essential in a marina as you need a ladder to step down on a finger pontoon.

What people can get buying a new yacht is certainly looking like good value compared to say 40 years ago. From my view point I feel they are built to a price rather than a standard - purely because the RCD is not strong enough. There certainly needs to be improvements for structural integrity of the hull to protect the occupants if it runs aground at full speed.

Would I really want to buy a new yacht? Sorry, but I have to say no.

Returning to the video at the start of this discussion. Listening to the owner discussing the problem with his yacht, I have to query his level of knowledge of boats. He bought a boat he could not afford and needed to charter it to pay part of his bills. He talks of the kitchen, not the galley. Some of his other comments are either woolly or just shows he knows very little about how his boat was built and the materials used. He relies of what the repairers are telling him. I feel he is brave to show the repair to his boat. I just hope it does not come back to haunt him at sometime in the future. I remember an other owner who had a problem with poor quality of the hull construction of a Hazar 30 and the UK agent would not help, neither did the yard. He had a very fully detailed web site with his problem, but later this was cut down heavily and now has been completely removed. No doubt the video will be removed in the future when the owner realises how it will affect his chartering and eventually selling further in the future.

Completely agree with your assessment of the owners knowledge.
I watched some of the video and realised quickly it was yet another novice pretending to be an expert on the internet. At least he has the sense and money to pay professionals to fix it.

 

[dgadee]

The pre-Hanse Dehlers have a reputation for being well put together, and good sailing boats. I think Hanse acquired Dehler around 2009.

Yep. I am not the type to change boats on a whim. My 37cws will do me for the rest of my sailing life.

 

[doug748]

OK and while I am on a roll, there must be a generation of AWBs where they laminated the grid in etc etc A golden age....?! ?

I have heard a good judge say about the year 2000. Won't work, at all, for all makes, all types or all models though.

The problem with modern design, with items like this, is it that becomes a race to the bottom. At this price point the rest have to be followed or you become stand out costly. Then someone on this forum will say:
"Yes but it is £15,000 more expensive - I can't see where the money was spent - I'd rather have the money - Basically it's just as good as a Rassy"
It ain't.

Same with space. I have heard people wrangling about the size of quarter cabins:
"Oh yes that boat, It's very cramped (dread word) - I have 7ft headroom on my Sunshine 34"
You can have 8ft headroom if the designer is willing to compromise the sailing performance. The Sunshine 34 will still sell in the charter market, at the right price, because nobody cares if it sails sideways.

.

 

[Bobc]

A video of the Bavaria factory in 2003. At about 1 min 30, you will notice them laminating the grid into the boat. You will also notice un-coloured mat up all the sides of the grid structure, with only the top being brown. The un-coloured bits are where they have laminated between the hull and the grid (basically every vertical bit).

This is how Bavaria did it, certainly up until about 2008.

So I guess in answer to Robplm's question, any Bavaria that has the blue stripes has the grid laminated into the hull.

 

[SvenH]

Considering that grounding is a relatively common occurrence while cruising, I would expect a boat to come out of that at better than a write-off, or a two year refurbishment.

Add to that that the money saving for the individual owner is then paid by everyone in case of grounding, through insurance premiums, where owners of well built boats (which I think I am one) do not get a discount on those premiums...

 

[Bobc]

Add to that that the money saving for the individual owner is then paid by everyone in case of grounding, through insurance premiums, where owners of well built boats (which I think I am one) do not get a discount on those premiums...

Not strictly true. If an insurer sees this as being a problem with a particular type, make, or year of boat, they will increase the premium on these boats accordingly, not across the board for all boat types.

In the same way that cover for the Caribbean has increased because of recent increased hurricane activity (such as Irma), but it has not increased premiums for boats in Europe.

 

[TernVI]

Fact is, if you smash two rigid objects together at speed, one of them is going to break. And it's not always going to be the seabed that breaks.
If you want a yacht that goes to windward efficiently you need a deep keel.

You don't buy a £100k car and then complain when it's expensive to mend after you've driven it into a wall.

The problem I see with modern fin keel yacht construction is that it's difficult to diagnose any damage to the grid, and very difficult to assess the quality of a repair. And the repair industry seems not to have developed its solutions adequately? Which perhaps indicates that real problems are not very widespread.

I think 80s GRP yachts got a way with a lot of impacts, precisely because they were not very rigid. Sigma 33's survived the most horrendous abouse, but don't try closing the bog door when it's being sailed hard. Giving a wooden boat that kind of abuse would have been expensive.
These days, it's supposed to be a non-contact sport.

 

[geem]

[QUOTE="Bobc, post:
In the same way that cover for the Caribbean has increased because of recent increased hurricane activity (such as Irma), but it has not increased premiums for boats in Europe.
[/QUOTE]
This is also not strictly true. You can have cover during the hurricane season in the hurricane belt or like we do have insurance cover during the hurricane season outside the hurricane belt. All insurance went up considerably in the Caribbean by about 25% regardless of what kind of cover you had or where you kept your boat in hurricane season

 

[Bobc]

[QUOTE="Bobc, post:
In the same way that cover for the Caribbean has increased because of recent increased hurricane activity (such as Irma), but it has not increased premiums for boats in Europe.

This is also not strictly true. You can have cover during the hurricane season in the hurricane belt or like we do have insurance cover during the hurricane season outside the hurricane belt. All insurance went up considerable in the Caribbean by about 25% regardless of what kind of cover you had or where you kept your boat in hurricane season
[/QUOTE]
But only in the Caribbean. Insurance cover didn't go up elsewhere because of problems in the Caribbean. The same as cover for all boats won't go up because insurance companies decide they don't like bonded grids. They will only go up for boats with bonded grids.