What they don't tell you about production boats

[ip485]

Tranona - an interesting reply, thank you. In the nicest way, I take gentle exception to being patronising. I have tried very hard to avoid just this. I have owned yachts and both ends of the spectrum, as well as cars at both ends including Fords. I would not be able to make the comments I have, if I had not. I suspect this isnt the case of some, because their experience has always been from one end of the debate, or the other.

If you truly believe that a yacht or car at one end of the price spectrum compared with the other offers nothing different then there can be no discussion.

If you dont accept this premise, then the discussion is what are the benefits of paying more? Where is the additional value?

I accept the argument that there is less efficiency in smaller builders, but not to the extent some believe. This isnt the car industry. Economies of scale are not there to the same extent. Comparisons between the productions lines of Oyster and Bavaria do not show huge economies of scale by the use of specialist manufacturing techniques.

I also accept the argument well set out in the video that most of the final fit components come from the same parts bins. The extra value is not to any extent down to significantly more expensive hardware, albeit it is to some extent.

The premise this is anything to do with my yacht is better than yours, or simple snobbery is just wrong. I have said repeatedly at the ends of the scales there are fine yachts that are each perfectly fit for purpose. Lets not devalue the discussion by implying something I have never intended to do.

In my case I have currently ended up with an IP after many other boats because yes, I love the fact it is ageless. It doesnt creek going to wind in heavy weather, its over rigged, the interior fit is beautiful, and although some veneers and ply are used, you would never know, it doesnt show all the scuffs and signs of use many boats do, and I cant imagine easily making a stronger boat. When I had A/C fitted for example the contractors first reaction was we should charge double, we have fitted hundreds of boats and there are only a very few builders that build to this quality. This isnt just casual chat, its guys who do this for a living and have worked on hundreds of boats.

Anyway I have tried to make my case a final time, because I hate these ageless discussions which simply distill to my boat is better than yours, or the implication there is some sort of snobbery at work. I say again, there are great yachts at both ends of the spectrum, I simply contend there is added value in yes the more expensive yachts and there are good reasons for paying more if you wish to do so.

 

[rotrax]

Between Tranona's well argued position and the equally well argued one of ip485 there is the truth.

My take on it, being a man of modest means is that I run a Ford - and have had excellent service and reliability from them - so I can afford my Island Packet.

IP485 IS absolutely correct on the integral strength and heavy internal build of the Island Packets. As I previously posted the internal transverse bulkheads on our boat, the motorsailer SP Cruiser model, are well over 75 mm thick. 3 x one inch marine ply bonded together and covered in GRP.

Cutting a speaker hole adjacent to the helm position required going through that plus the external veneer - nearly 4 inches in total.

When the Lexus was taking sales from the more established luxury cars in the USA, a Bentley salesman was in the back of a demo model with a potential customer.
The customer asked about the strength and safety of both a Bentley and a Lexus.

The Bentley guy took a lungful of smoke from his Havana and said " Dont worry about a crash in a Bentley old boy - you could drive right through three Lexi in one of these and not spill your drink! "

Now, we all know that is not a true story, but it IS how First Mate and I feel about our chosen boat.

Which, for us, means a great deal.

If our choice was limited to new models, an IP would be unaffordable.

We would be sailing in something far less expensive.

We bought our boat in very neglected condition. We put £10K aside for rectification and sorting out.

We did not spend £1500! Due to its inherent strength, quality and good build.

All the above purely subjective, no scientific measurement and with owner bias..............................

 

[ip485]

Rotrax - well said. I also agree the posiiton is undoubtedly somewhere in between.

There is inevitably the subjective element. By definition, it cant be measured. I can sum it up by having had other skippers on board who have commented the IP just has a different feel about it from so many other production yachts, and, I might add, they really notice. It is subjective. There will be those that say its because it is heavy and plods along, but as we have heard they arent that heavy, and they dont necessarily plod along. I get the same feel on the few Oysters I have been on board for example.

Then there is the less subjective element, which I have attempted to explain (and so have you) when you know a boat well, have taken most parts, apart, and know how the thing is constructed.

These are comparisons that can only be made over a range of builds, which is precisely why I refer to contractors who have been on mine, and hundreds of other boats. It is also why the video was so interesting in terms of the comments of a company that has repaired hundreds of yachts and seen what is under the surface layers, actually know how the parts are bonded together and what makes the boat tick.

I could tell you lots of things about IP's that arent perfect, things under the surface that take time to get to know, so they arent - perfect. I doubt there is a yacht yet built that is. However, the comparison has been made across the spectrum, and I have yet to hear of a convincing reason that there is no added value in manufacturer having double the budget to spend on a yacht build

 

[Bobc]

I accept the argument that there is less efficiency in smaller builders, but not to the extent some believe. This isnt the car industry. Economies of scale are not there to the same extent. Comparisons between the productions lines of Oyster and Bavaria do not show huge economies of scale by the use of specialist manufacturing techniques.

I agree with the sentiment that the money has to go somewhere, but there are a couple of things I don't agree with, namely:-

1./ Your comment above - I suggest you go and look at the relevant yards and they build techniques. The Bavaria factory is more like a car factory than a boat builder. They save big-time on labour by automation. Their deck router is a thing of wonder, it drills every hole and cuts out every window/hatch hole in 45 mins to tenths of a mm accuracy. To do the same job by hand would probably take 2 blokes a week. Same with the interior woodwork, where the automated routing and varnishing line produces a complete set of boat interior panels in hours, not weeks. This has a big effect on cost.

2./ Economies of scale - when you are producing 3,000-5,000 boats per year, you can negotiate significantly better prices with suppliers that a company that is building 10 boats per year (and I'm talking 50-60% off, instead of 25-30%). This again has a massive effect on the cost price of the boat, especially as the bought-in parts are the majority of the material cost.

So let's say that Bavaria's material cost is 25% lower, and their labour cost is 50% lower. That means that they can sell a boat at £250k that someone like Oyster would have to sell at about £400k.

Now I'm not for a moment saying that the this covers all the difference and that they all produce the same article, but it does make up a great deal of the difference.

 

[ip485]

Bobc - it does, but I am also not sure to what extent. There is some misunderstanding that volume has dramatic eocnomies of scale but, to some extent, this only becomes true with really large volume. There is significant cost in setting up a "production line" in terms of capital investment, and this must be amortised over the production. Also with volume tends to come much larger advertising budgets to shift the volume, larger premises and a more expensive workforce (for various operational reasons). With relatively small production runs these are all factors that dont always secure the cost saving benefits for which one might hope compared with true volume mnaufacturers like the car makers. The business also tends to be far more capital intensive as more stock is carried and it is more difficult to tailor the production line to demand.

Never the less I see you recognise this and it isnt a criticsm of your comments, rather that I think in the gerneal debate some may see this as a much greater factor than it really is. Never the less it is part of the explanation, and I have no doubt Bavaria and their like will negotiate better discounts on all the bought in components, although in the case of IP, I guess they have a major advantage being based in the States where some much still seems to be $ for pound or better.

 

[Rappey]

Have often wondered how strong a cored hull actually is, hence asking if any mobo,s were cored, logic being if it's good enough for the beating a motorboat hull receives then it must be strong enough ?
But then Oldgit posted his link in #55 which didn't appear to create much discussion ?
I've read through it and it's pretty horrifying with lots of evidence of just how bad cored boats can be.
Read this article and tell me it's not true with cored hulls literally falling apart yet only receiving minor impacts.
Are They Fiberglass Boats Anymore? by David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor.
Resin injection appears to be touted as a relatively new thing but lotus built moonraker and some other brand shells back in the 70,s using vacuum injection.
Heard it said non of those boats suffered osmosis .Is that true ?

 

[Bajansailor]

Rappey, re cored hulls on motor boats, a good example would be the modern RNLI lifeboats - they all have cored hulls.

I don't know what the specifications of the newer boats are like now, but I worked there in the early 90's when the Severn and Trent classes were being developed, and the Trent had a foam cored bottom where the foam itself was approx 3" / 75 mm thick.

 

[Chae_73]

So let's say that Bavaria's material cost is 25% lower, and their labour cost is 50% lower. That means that they can sell a boat at £250k that someone like Oyster would have to sell at about £400k.

This is an interesting point for me. The figures above may perhaps be overstated, but there is an interesting debate to be had about how much the extra cost of premium builders goes into things that really make the boat "better", and how many just make it "nicer"?

A Morgan costs a lot more than a Skoda (I drive a Skoda btw!), but objectively, a Skoda is a safer, faster in many conditions and more efficient vehicle than a Morgan. However, I guess there would be a lot more pride in ownership of a Morgan vice my Skoda estate.

A new Malo 43 (one of my "lottery win" boats) has acres of hand made teak furnishing inside. Yes, teak will last well and stand up to wear, but that must add quite a lot to the cost of the boat, and it doesn't make it any safer or sail better. How much of the price is for pride of ownership, and how much is getting you a "better" boat?

 

[Rappey]

where the foam itself was approx 3" / 75 mm thick.

It's not the thickness of the foam that appears to be the issue but how thin the grp exterior hull is and how strong the bonding of the core to the grp is.
I would imagine a lifeboat is built above and beyond what is needed due to its intended use

 

[JumbleDuck]

There is little to debate about the technical issues as it is common knowledge that a deep high aspect ratio keel does not like hitting something solid, particularly as is most likely toward the bottom.

technical addition: the dynamics of a keel strike are much more complicated than most people think, because you have to take account both of linear and rotational motion. If the strikes is on the front edge, level with the "centre or percussion" then, weirdly enough, there is no instantaneous force at all at the root, basically because the desire of the keel to move backwards as a whole is exactly balanced at the top by its desire to rotate, top forward and bottom backwards. Doesn't help when you hit a rockwith the bottom, but can substantially change the effect of hitting a submerged object.

OK, back to the argument. I'll offer two quotes:

"Weight is only useful in a steam roller" - Uffa Fox

"Simplify, then add lightness" - Colin Chapman.

 

[Rappey]

OK, back to the argument. I'll offer two quotes:

"Weight is only useful in a steam roller" - Uffa Fox

"Simplify, then add lightness" - Colin Chapman.

Wouldn't an ice breaker gain an advantage from weight ?
Chapman is correct but at the cost of much higher maintenance. I owned a lotus for 11 years.
It did have a solid grp body shell which totally won when a ford focus drove into the side of me.

 

[Bobc]

This is an interesting point for me. The figures above may perhaps be overstated, but there is an interesting debate to be had about how much the extra cost of premium builders goes into things that really make the boat "better", and how many just make it "nicer"?

A Morgan costs a lot more than a Skoda (I drive a Skoda btw!), but objectively, a Skoda is a safer, faster in many conditions and more efficient vehicle than a Morgan. However, I guess there would be a lot more pride in ownership of a Morgan vice my Skoda estate.

A new Malo 43 (one of my "lottery win" boats) has acres of hand made teak furnishing inside. Yes, teak will last well and stand up to wear, but that must add quite a lot to the cost of the boat, and it doesn't make it any safer or sail better. How much of the price is for pride of ownership, and how much is getting you a "better" boat?

Agree completely. Adding to my comment above, is that these premium builders don't try and sell "an equivalent boat" for £400k, because they know that nobody will buy it. What they do is spend more money on better materials, spend more time on "creaftmanship" and doing things like laminating rather than bonding and jointing and gluing the woodwork together rather than screwing it together.

The result being that that you pay £500k rather than £400k, but get a superior product. What you don't get is another £250k's worth though.

 

[Ammonite]

Wouldn't an ice breaker gain an advantage from weight ?
Chapman is correct but at the cost of much higher maintenance. I owned a lotus for 11 years.
It did have a solid grp body shell which totally won when a ford focus drove into the side of me.

Another of his quotes is that if any car holds together for a whole race it is too heavy with another being that you wont catch him driving a race car that he has built!
I for one would not want a cruising boat built by Lotus back in the day and I speak as a former owner of Lotus Europa (1969). It was fun to drive but basically a death trap given other cars on the road with side impact protection consisting of about 4mm of fibreglass!

 

[JumbleDuck]

If you dont accept this premise, then the discussion is what are the benefits of paying more? Where is the additional value?

In the concept of a Veblen Good, for a start. That's one where increasing the price increases desirability and demand. Part of th efun of owning an Oyster (yacht or Rolex) is knowing that it demonstrates wealth. To be fair, I don't think IP are at all an aspirational brand, so that doesn't apply to them.

I accept the argument that there is less efficiency in smaller builders, but not to the extent some believe. This isnt the car industry. Economies of scale are not there to the same extent. Comparisons between the productions lines of Oyster and Bavaria do not show huge economies of scale by the use of specialist manufacturing techniques.

How long does it take Oyster to build a yacht? As I recall - Tranona can correct me - it takes Bavaria about the three days from start to finish. Oyster may well use similar manufacturing techniques but they won't enjoy any benefits of scale because they don't built at scale.

There is fascinating video of Bavaria's production system on YouTube:

I remember seeing a timelapse film of one of the big motorboat manufacturers - I think it was Fairline - in which you could see blokes with tools running up and down ladders constantly as they fitted things by hand. No wonder their products cost several times what a mass producer would charge.

I simply contend there is added value in yes the more expensive yachts and there are good reasons for paying more if you wish to do so.

It's true that to get more you have, in general to pay more. But it's not the case that if you pay more, you automatically get more. You may just be paying for a bloke to run up and down a ladder.

 

[JumbleDuck]

When the Lexus was taking sales from the more established luxury cars in the USA, a Bentley salesman was in the back of a demo model with a potential customer.
The customer asked about the strength and safety of both a Bentley and a Lexus.

The Bentley guy took a lungful of smoke from his Havana and said " Dont worry about a crash in a Bentley old boy - you could drive right through three Lexi in one of these and not spill your drink! "

An interesting comparison, in context. I presume that was from the days when Bentley and RR were one. The cars then were beautifully made, but very shoddily engineered. It took BMW and VW to improve the engineering to match the construction.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Rappey, re cored hulls on motor boats, a good example would be the modern RNLI lifeboats - they all have cored hulls.

I don't know what the specifications of the newer boats are like now, but I worked there in the early 90's when the Severn and Trent classes were being developed, and the Trent had a foam cored bottom where the foam itself was approx 3" / 75 mm thick.

Cored hulls are excellent engineering. The layup in the middle contributes very little strength and lugging it around slows you down.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Cored hulls are excellent engineering. The layup in the middle contributes very little strength and lugging it around slows you down.

Why is that? Would have something to do with shape, semi-monocoque imparting strength? Curious to understand.

 

[TernVI]

Cored hulls are excellent engineering. The layup in the middle contributes very little strength and lugging it around slows you down.

Exactly.
A foam cored grp panel is very much stiffer than a 'solid' grp panel of the same weight.
This means that it flexes much less and therefore doesn't suffer the fatigue-like degradation of thin grp panels.
GRP dinghies made of cored construction stay competitively stiff for a very long time.
Single skin GRP dinghies can be uncompetitive after less than a year.

I think some of the people I've know who used to work in various UK boatyards could educate the OP with 'what they don't tell you about small scale boatbuilding'. I'm sure some of the tales may have been a little exaggerated in various bars, but let's just say a Bavaria is very likely to actually contain the reinforcement that the 'designer' specified.

 

[rotrax]

technical addition: the dynamics of a keel strike are much more complicated than most people think, because you have to take account both of linear and rotational motion. If the strikes is on the front edge, level with the "centre or percussion" then, weirdly enough, there is no instantaneous force at all at the root, basically because the desire of the keel to move backwards as a whole is exactly balanced at the top by its desire to rotate, top forward and bottom backwards. Doesn't help when you hit a rockwith the bottom, but can substantially change the effect of hitting a submerged object.

OK, back to the argument. I'll offer two quotes:

"Weight is only useful in a steam roller" - Uffa Fox

"Simplify, then add lightness" - Colin Chapman.

Both of those are superb advice if performance is the only goal.

Been there, done that, with my racing motorbikes.

When they kept breaking silly little things - aluminium exhaust brackets just one example - I went back to steel and finished more races.

Six laps around the IOM TT Circuit finds weakness very fast.

As does the sea.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Why is that? Would have something to do with shape, semi-monocoque imparting strength? Curious to understand.

Basically, when you bend anything the insides don't change much in length, so don't develop much by way of stresses. The bits further away extend more, develop higher stresses and - being further away from the middle - even higher bending forces.Hence the flanges on girders, for example. Of course you have to be able to deal with other loadings, but (almost) everything is bending eventually ...