What should the budget be?

[daveg45]

Hi
I am new to this site and to sailing (well as an owner). Like many others the idea of living on a yacht is very attractive. Initially we were looking at the Med (Lefkas) but have decided to berth in the uk for a couple of years (Torquay maybe or Gosport) and semi live aboard and gain more experience before we ‘sell up and sail’. Although the thought of Biscay in a couple of years makes me nervous. What I can't get a good feel for what the budget for annual costs should be for general cruising once we go (42ft yacht). If it is as high as the south coast of the uk I wonder how people manage the lifestyle especially if retired. It seems buying the boat is the easy bit. Any advice would be welcome.

 

[captainslarty]

Well, I was just retiring to bed, but a quick message, first welcome to the forum.
Budget is a real difficult one to answer. In the uk, a lot more than many other places.
It dpends on Soooooooooooooooooooooo many factors Dave.
How much can you do yourself ? (In the way of maintnance repairs etc. some out here do everything, they have to and often want to.
Do you want to eat out often or cook onboard ?
DO you want paid for entertainment.
Do you have family or relatives that require many visits "home" ?
Will you anchor a lot (When away from the uk where I am presuming the ultimate budget costs are leading ??), will you stay in marinas, will you stay a day ro two in a mrina, a week, a month, a year ?.. are you prepared to dry the boat against a wall to touch up antifoul, or do you want a haul out ?
And many many other things come into the equation.. hope you see where this is all going.
Search the archives for other similar threads too.

We manage on 800 a month (Euros !) (NHS Pension - early retirement, but index linked) due to health problems we have been in La Coruna for quite a while, one benefit is that a years marina fees work out at less than 6 euros a day, all inclusive... whilst others on short term are paying 35 - 45 a night !

We cook virtually all meals on board, dont go to bars or restaurants unless a very special occasion, do ALL work on the boat ourselves. Yes, we have a good buffer in the bank, but that really is not to be touched if possible, its ALL we have.

Many have a budget, and thats it, no matter what it is, they live TO the budget, out of necessity, we actually enjoy the change from care free money no object to very carefull financial control, and ya know what, we dont want for anything...

You can only really find out what others budget, not what yours will be, if you have a set amount, then that is your budget, plain n simple.
Hope everything works out, enjoy, and above all be happy and healthy.

Joe n Jayne

 

[daveg45]

Hi Joe n Jayne

Thanks for your reply. I didn’t expect one so soon.

In answer to your questions I hope to be able to do most maintenance myself. As you guess my main concern is what costs are likely to be once we are away from the uk.
The style of cruising I would prefer is using anchorages as much as possible rather than using a marina but not sure how achievable or realistic that would be in reality. I spoke to someone this summer who basically got is boat hauled out wherever he could as and when he needed to visit the uk and other than that had no ‘home’ marina.
On the question of hauling out how often is that really required? One a year, once every two? Your suggestion of drying the boat against a wall appeals. Does leaving a modern grp hull in the water do any damage?
I hope to be able to maintain a £25 to £30k income but that needs to cover everything from the flights home as and when required (prob a couple of times a year). From what you suggest is should be enough.
Dave
Ps how is life in La Coruna Spain

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope to be able to maintain a £25 to £30k income but that needs to cover everything from the flights home as and when required (prob a couple of times a year). From what you suggest is should be enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever I've mentioned £20k p.a. inc. flights, (mainly for SWMBO), people have suggested that it is a lot, so you should be OK.

Many marinas do winter deals - lagos, portugal was £2800 for 9 months Sept to June 2006/7 for 44ft. In summer the prices rocket, as I found to my cost. After a few marina nights in June/July this year, I spent about 11 weeks at anchor out of 14 weeks this summer, in various very nice places between Portugal and Malta. Once you get to Malta and further East, marina prices fall dramatically - for one year in Portomaso it's about £1800 for 44ft, but berths for more than winter, (October to March), are hard to come by. Turkey and maybe Greece are even cheaper.

I plan to haul every 2 years - and scrub the bottom every now and then using scuba gear.

I dont think leaving boats in the water does them any harm.

Cheers

Richard

 

[EDM]

Dave,
Out yacht is based in Malaysia, where there are many Cruisers living the dream. We alas still have kids at school so are holiday live-aboarders.

My view from on-far is that yachties on live-aboards tend to be classified as
People who have kept houses, have income - and have a very good life.
OR
People who sold up, sailed, been going for 4+ years who have now got to the Indian Oean area, and sadly now can not afford to go back into Europe.

Whilst this is a sweeping generalisation - it alas is far too easy to work out which group most yachties fall into.

Budget far more than you think for replacing things - everything breaks, fails, wears out, gets stolen, fall overboard. Marinas can be terribly expensive, haul-outs, anti-foul, engine repairs, flights home, Charts, communications, GSM, Medical, Diesel, Fresh Water, Food, Dingies, Outboards, Sail, Insurance !!!

Are you and your crew "High Maintenance" ? do you like the odd 5 Star hotel ? Then your costs will be greater.

I personally budget for 10% of my yacht's value in Maintenance, Insurance, and Improvements per annun.

Then ADD the cost of living on top - we tend to be quite low maintenance (although the wife is trying to change that /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif)


If you look at www.bumfuzzle.com you will get a budget on the very lavish side - I think they blew $2,000 per month for 4 years !!! Good friend of ours lives well/with a small degree of survival on 500 eu, but in Malaysia.

If you are a skilled craftsman, AC mechanic, Sail fitter etc you will be able to earn or trade for other good and services - but this can be very difficult to do on a long term basis, as you will upset either the locals or some other cruiser; The after effects of which can be unpleasant.

I hope that is some food for thought

Fair Winds
Tim

 

[captainslarty]

Hello Dave, now that health is returning (Hurrah !), life is better than ever, Coruna is a super place.
On a budget of 25K + (If that is GBP .. wayhay !!!) you should be able to have a fairly lavish lifestyle in the old life terms. Also consider the size of the boat (If you havent got one yet), many say go as big as you can afford and sail single handed - due to a normal 2 person crew being single handed on off watch on passage... I must confess, we have a BIG 34 footer, more room than lots of modern 40´s in the way of usable space, storage etc.. dont forget a sugarscoop stern on a modern boat is a racing rules throwback that people find pretty for some reason lol. Take a Bendytoy - I think it was a 476 or very similar, the owner says he has a 47 foot boat, well, on the paperwork its a 44 footer, and theres 5 foot of silly plastic hanging out the bum of it, a "bathing" platform.... hmmmmm... Jayne had the dubious pleaseure of a 400 mile quick delivery on said boat.., comments from here, big forecabin, wide saloon, no good at sea, two stern wide coffins reported as "suites", on taking a normal fall from a 2 mtr wave in south biscay, the masthead lighting arrangement - tricolor, windex etc, fell off, it was uncomfortable at sea, the saloon had little if any handholds and was capable of breaking bones.. lol... not a nice experience, but, it was a great apartment in marina or at anchor.. if you can look at as many designs as possible, try to go for waterline length, it is a better indicator of size than manufacturers numbers, as Jeanneau once replied to a querie from an owner re a sun oddity 37 or similar that measured 35, they were anecdotaly said to have replied that a Boeing 747 isnt necessarilt 747 feet long..... go figure.
We thought we were buying the smallest we could reasonably manage, but we find we could actually live happily as a couple on a tessa 32, nic 32 etc... smaller is cheaper, in all areas, from parts to berthing to antifouling. Just another thing to consider. If you have your boat, then that is that, no problems.. as for hand holds, get staggeringly drunk one night and climb aboard the boat with a rescue partner stood by lol... everywhere you stagger, fit a hand hold, ceiling or cabintop holds are ok, but Jayne cant reach them as she is vertically challenged, and we dont want a london subway jungle of leather straps. We even bought several of the gel filled computer keyboard wrist rest thingies, velcroed to the top of door, low area etc, they make great head pads.
Anyways, I digress, Ruddles has not been out of the oggin now for over 2 years, and NEEDS to come out, no problems keeping the boat in the water, weed growth will vary with location temperature and type of antifouling, I think it was Richard who says he uses scuba occasionaly, we have a pal who is a diver, so we let him do it now and again in return for odd jobs for him on computers etc. This time we will travel lift her out as I also need to replace two through hulls and add a new one for the watermaker. This time we are using 3 coats of Jotun antifouling, cos it works around here.. we will come out for a week, live on the boat out of the water, then pop her back in. we have a mussel farm on the bottom of the keel, a SERIOUS mussel farm...
I think with 25 to 30k you should be delirious... we find it a real pleasure to actually live to a lower budget, it is quite enlightening.. There are 3 boats here now for the winter, all planning on having time ashore for work and weedkiller.. we are planning times so we all hit the hard together, it is then a very nice way of cleaning and sorting when 6 people do the work instead of two, a bit like community self build projects...... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I dont need to earn money, but enjoy radio electronics repairs and servicing, I offer a service to cruisers in autopilot repairs etc and keep a good stock of older pilot parts in stock, often px older for new. its just for fun and a service to others, and it is also reasonably covert in operation.. many places do not offer such a service so it tends not to tread on toes.
anyways... keep us up to date with the plans. ours are now finalised, head west for a year or two..
Joe n Jayne

 

[Abigail]

Hi Dave,

we've lived aboard our 40' ketch for 4.5 years, including three winters in the UK (not as bad as some make out.) Now we've got as far as southern France, via Spain, Portugal and Morocco. We work some of the time, having to come back to the UK for a little while to earn the better money, but we don't have a home apart from the boat.

£25,000 - if GBP - is a lot. We live pretty well, do eat out, visit marinas every now and then, like to do the cultural thing in museums etc. Last year we did overland trips to both Fez and Granada, for example. At other times we are at anchor and spend very little money indeed. Even so, especially finding cheap winter rates for marinas, we would struggle to spend that much in a year.

If you want to travel to and from UK, especially after leaving Europe, then you start to add on a lot of money, but a very good idea is always to have enough money to be able to get you both 'home' if you have to. We have one aged ma in UK and the other in NZ, so that's quite a big commitment for us! We have also read that if one partner is less enthusiastic than the other (VERY common), then it is a good idea for the less enthusiastic one always to have that money at her (usually her) direct control and easily accessible.

There is a real issue, like some have said, about spares. However handy you are some things need more than you can do - eg we are buying a new mainsail this year as ours is full of tiny UV holes; it's about 13 years old and we don't really trust it in a blow any more. So you have to allow for that, which might be very little one year (especially the first one after you leave the UK), but more in others.

Roaring Girl only comes out of the water for a short while every couple of years really. She's getting a good long dry out this winter as we are on a long-planned family visit (by air this time) to NZ - but it hasn't done her any harm staying in the water a lot. You can expect some blister signs on your rudder after a couple of years, but lots of boats have those and it is not difficult to deal with. Don't forget you can't lean against a wall where there isn't enough tide to leave the hull dry enough to paint!

The budget question does get discussed a lot, and it's worth a search both here and on other forums like ssca.org and cruisenews.net.

Also - if you're staying the UK, do you have to be on the south coast? It really is a lot more expensive that other coasts. We were in Brighton for a year (great city, ok marina, but crap to live in), and 2 years in Ipswich which is not a great town but has really nice local sailing, a marina in the centre of town that encourages liveaboards and good rail connections. We are at this moment staying with a friend in Cardiff, which also has a decent marina and good facilities. The point being that there may be better (cheaper, nicer to liveaboards, better local sailing) than the ones you mentioned.

And finally - we're great believers in going when you're seaworthy, not when you're ready. You're never ready!

Good luck with it all.

 

[TigaWave]

You say general cruising? our general cruising was over 10,000 miles a year which results in quite a bit of cost in maintenance terms especially if you get a yard to do it.

At the other end there are people who mainly anchor, never sail far or in a real blow and maintain themselves.

Allowing 10% of yacht value/year for maintenance and updates is probably about right as an average.

We also found when we were exploring we would hire a car to get around and eat out more, Madiera ended up being quite expensive but it wasn't the marina costs, it was more bar restaurant and outings.

Have fun and don't worry too much about Biscay, its a lovely area to cruise and enjoy for a year on your way south.

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]
Allowing 10% of yacht value/year for maintenance and updates is probably about right as an average.

[/ QUOTE ]

The figure of 10% is mentioned quite a lot, so I guess it is either realistic, or apochryphal.

For me 10% would be around £12,000, which would leave only £8k out of a £20k budget, and only £4k after £4k marina fees, (either all year, or all winter and a few in summer).

For some it would be much more, and for some, much less, based on value.

Does anyone keep a detailed record of maintenance/update expenditure? I wonder how it averages over a few years, and what it might be in relation to boat value?

Richard

 

[Sy-Revolution]

Hi Dave/Folks,
I've been thinking along the same lines recently but would like to ask ,as an aside, what kind of lump sum would one need to have in order to realise 25k PA?

When we decide to take the plunge I reckon we may, after selling up, have something like £300,000 to invest, is that enough? As you can see I'm no financial wizard.....

Thoughts?

 

[daveg45]

Whenever I've mentioned £20k p.a. inc. flights, (mainly for SWMBO), people have suggested that it is a lot, so you should be OK.

What is SWMBO Richard?

Thanks for all the comments. All basically helping to ease our concerns.

With regards to yacht size/type this seems to open up a whole new plethora of questions. Personally I wanted to get the smallest yacht I felt I could feel comfortable on. Not just from a sailing point of view but also from a living point of view. Visiting boat yards and shows over the past couple of years I found that some boats I was glad to get to get off after 20 mins and other I wanted to return to and linger on. Being 6’2” tall I feel when it comes to yachting I am vertically challenged in the opposite direction...oh to be 5’8”! Many of the older yachts I looked at circa 70’s and 80’s had me stooped to the point that handholds wouldn’t be needed as I could wedge my head against the coach roof and spread my feet.
I have read much about sea keeping qualities of one yacht versus another and bilge keel or fin and it seems to me that the whole thing is a compromise. However I do wonder how much time we will spend actually sailing v sat at anchor or marina berth during which time the living space becomes more of an issue for me. Time will tell on that one I guess.

Now I have committed to the yacht been berthed in the uk initially I guess I have year or so to scare myself stupid over the trip across the bay of Biscay. Maybe I need to start another thread going!!!!
Other questions that come to mind is how do you all deal with mundane stuff like post and everyday stuff like that. Is it really possible to break free off it all?
So glad to hear you are on the mend Joe (or Jayne) how far west are you heading?

Regards Dave.

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Dave/Folks,
I've been thinking along the same lines recently but would like to ask ,as an aside, what kind of lump sum would one need to have in order to realise 25k PA?

When we decide to take the plunge I reckon we may, after selling up, have something like £300,000 to invest, is that enough? As you can see I'm no financial wizard.....

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly a candidate for an interesting new thread. I guess you could get 5%, (possibly 6%), in an interest bearing account, so £300k provides £15k - £18K.

You probably dont want to be making riskier investments which could erode your capital, so the above might be as good as it gets?

Of course, you could say that you will invest it all at 5%, but will allow yourselves to spend say, £10k of the capital each year for say, £10 years, which would give you ten years at a bit over £20K p.a., (havent done the precise figures, but you will get my drift).

If it was me, (and I am a landlord already, so have some expertise), I would probably put it in a high interest deposit account, and live off the interest and a bit of capital for the first year or so.... but I would also be looking for an opportunity to buy properties, (either outright, or leveraged with borrowings - max around 50%), when the market seems right - which isnt now!!

Whatever you do, living off interest and a bit of capital wouldnt eat into your capital too much over a couple of years, (it would over 10 years), so you could suck it and see for a while, then take a view.

Given the current forecasts for the property market, in a couple of years, you would probably be able to get back on the ladder for much the same as you are getting off - that's not guaranteed, but it's the way it looks at the moment.

Just my 2 pennorth and a bit of food for thought.

BTW - for me, it's a dream come true and I have to keep pinching myself to make sure I'm not dreaming - so the erosion of a bit of capital over a few years isnt going to worry me too much.

Cheers

Richard

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]


What is SWMBO Richard?

With regards to yacht size/type this seems to open up a whole new plethora of questions.

Now I have committed to the yacht been berthed in the uk initially I guess I have year or so to scare myself stupid over the trip across the bay of Biscay. Maybe I need to start another thread going!!!!

Other questions that come to mind is how do you all deal with mundane stuff like post and everyday stuff like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave,

SWMBO = She Who Must Be Obeyed = Wife/Partner/Whatever

I wanted something big enough to live on and small enough to handle, possible single handed at times.

having visited a few boat shows, decided that this meant between 40ft and 45ft. Bought a Moody 44 because it ticked all the right boxes as soon as I got on board one, and 3 years looking didnt change my mind.

There is a thread already going about being scared stupid of crossing Biscay - I guess a search for Biscay newer than 1 month would probably find it.

Post and everyday stuff - I havent got to grips with post yet. mainly use Mobile Data sims or wifi for internet: email, browsing the web, Skype for phone calls, watching UK TV via a Slingbox at Janets house. I also have a global roaming sim card with a UK number, so people can call me at UK mobile rates, and it doesnt cost me to receive; calls out are around 26p per minute.

 

[daveg45]

Hi Richard

I noticed you mentioned you are a landlord which is the same game as me. However I have always maintained my portfolio (which is not massive) myself. I guess another part of this budget question is handing over to agencies (especially with this HMO licensing ). I agree now is NOT the time to me investing in buy to let and I have felt that way for a couple of years now. However people still seem to be piling in. The Bank is prob the best option short term.

Regards Dave

 

[FAITIRA]

Divide by ten and thats about what we have, plus €600/month pension and we have lived well for 12 years, we had a 44ft boat which I built but we decided we didn,t need it, the present Nic provides all we need for a pleasant life afloat much more economically.

 

[daveg45]

There seems so much variation on annual budget requirements. For me the idea of living at anchorage sounds great. I wonder how achievable this is. Ie how often would a visit to marina be needed. Is a generator on board really necessary and what about water maker? Lets assume for the moment we are in the med.

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess another part of this budget question is handing over to agencies (especially with this HMO licensing ).

[/ QUOTE ]

In a sense, I guess I was lucky with my agent, (and God help me if he stops doing it).

I decided years ago that I was no good at collecting money from tenants, so employed an agent who had an office a few doors down from my old estate agency. Turns out he's excellent, and I knew this before I left on my travels. He also takes care of most maintenance without me needing to know about it, and waits till he can get hold of me for any big jobs.

Perhaps there's some mileage in appointing someone you think may be good so you can monitor things while you are still on the scene. Then you can change them if not good enough, or work together to create systems that will work while you are away if they are good enough.

There would be nothing worse than appointing an agent a week before you leave, only to find that things you think should be happening are not, and you are too far away to have much influence on making them happen.

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]
There seems so much variation on annual budget requirements. For me the idea of living at anchorage sounds great. I wonder how achievable this is. Ie how often would a visit to marina be needed. Is a generator on board really necessary and what about water maker? Lets assume for the moment we are in the med.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having the past 15 years of my sailing life in marinas, I assumed that our trip across the Med. would be from marina to marina, with a few weeks here and there.

All went well in June - 3 nights at 3 marinas, all around £20 per night. Then we get to Ibiza at the end of June - £40 per night, and San Antonio from 1 July £60 per night.

Fortunately, we met David, (lemain), and he talked us through mooring buoys and anchoring, and helped get our outboard going, so I/we have spent most of the summer at anchor - which is great!!

My issues are well documented here but, having bought a marina based boat, and being none the wiser, I was running the engine for 6-8 hours a day to charge the batteries, and had occasional issues with water.

My decision has been that this winter I will upgrade the battery charging system with kit from Sterling/Adverc/Driftgate/whoever, and buy a Honda eu20i portable generator, (2Kw), to resolve those issues. Dinghying ashore for petrol for the generator would be fairly straightforward, thus reducing the frequency of marina visits for main engine fuel.

I have a watermaker and solar panels on my wish list for this year or next.

Alone, showering quickly twice a week, I could last about 6 weeks at anchor with 90 gallons of water, but I'm sure I didnt smell too good after 3 or 4 days without a shower. With SWMBO on board, 2 weeks would probably be tops, (more showers, cleaning, more washing up, and so on). A watermaker and solar panels would make us more self sufficient and, over a period, possibly save the investment by reducing marina costs, (havent done the sums).

My short answer would be that some kind of generator is essential, and the Honda 2Kw seems to be the concensus here, and a watermaker and solar panels could complete an ideal setup, (missing only A/C /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

Having said all of that, if you can nip into a marina for fuel every couple of weeks, (or every week), without staying a night, you can usually top up with water for nothing, or a small fee, so the water maker isnt as critical as power generation.

Hope this helps

Richard

 

[daveg45]

Thanks for that Richard

Yes all this is helping a great deal. Have just been chatting with my own SWMBO who as asked the question re security living life at anchor. Personally my gut feeling is it is the best option.

David

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]
who as asked the question re security living life at anchor.

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont know the answer but, in 30 years of sailing, I spent my first night at anchor in June in Ibiza, and have spent a further 73 nights at anchor in the Med. over the summer - it occasionally crossed my mind that it would be easy fro the bad guys to come aboard and do away with me/us, or nick the boat and leave us to swim ashore, or whatever, but only fleetingly. I usually slept with the companionway and hatches open, unconcerned.

I havent felt there is any more risk than in a house in the UK where, these days, they will break in, wake you up holding a knife or gun to you, and demand your car keys.

I always lock up at night in a marina.

I guess we/you need to hear from those who have had bad experiences to get a better feel for security.