What parts of ME do I need to measure, before ordering a trapeze harness?

[markhomer]

how the f~K does a post on trapeze harnesse end up discussing how to reef a wayfarer !!!!!!!! ??????????????????



Try Rooster for a harness very comfy , magic marine too

 

[dancrane]

how...does a post on trapeze harnesse end up discussing how to reef a wayfarer !?

Answer: I'm not a racer, I'm definitely a cruiser, but in an old racing boat. So issues regularly come up which offend the pure thoughts of racers. I'm quite surprised that lots of other cruisers don't choose the option of some race-boat adrenaline too, but each to their own. The lines are too clearly defined for my liking, so I just sit semi-comfortably on the fence...although the idea of any compromise causes surprising incomprehension here! Thanks for the Rooster tip.

Re: depth of reef:
On a Wayfarer, a single reef would normally be about 1.2m up the luff, or if it's the first of two reefs, then about 0.8m or so.

1.2m, that is deep! That'd take 30 or 40 square feet off my mainsail. If it's likely to blow hard enough for me to want a sail that small, I'll hope not to be at sea.

Good advice though, thanks Rob. (Since you've done it yourself, you can p'raps give me a straight answer to a dumb question)...

Is it possible simply to choose the luff & leech reef positions, then overlay the new cringle areas with stress-spreading 'fans' made from heavy-duty sail-repair tape, which can be reinforced by sewing before cutting the hole and adding the eyelet? In my mind, it's that easy...

 

[Kelpie]

OK, I'll come clean, I didn't actually add the reef points myself- I paid Mike McNamara £35+vat to put in each line of reefs. And he did a very nice job too.
I've heard of people doing DIY reefing eyelets but I personally chickened out of that option.

 

[dancrane]

OK, I'll come clean, I didn't actually add the reef points myself...
I've heard of people doing DIY reefing eyelets but I personally chickened out of that option.

I didn't mean to press the truth out of you! But I wonder how skilled it's necessary to be.

Did McNamara do it as I described above, or is your sailcloth robust enough just to have the immediate vicinity of the new holes, reinforced?

 

[scruff]

Here's the point, if I may clarify: I've sailed lots of simple boats in lots of weather - Toppers, Lasers, Mirrors, Bosuns, Wayfarers, beach-cats in Australia, and numerous others which didn't have names I knew. None were the least bit daunting, and I always easily coped well enough to feel thoroughly confident. I know how to sail...

If that is the case Dan, I unreservedly apologise for previous comments.

My comments were in light of your previous statements and questions, which I took to understand that you were not competent sailing.

In light of all too published deaths on the water in recent years, the last thing I would want is someone not competent being egged into sailing dangerously above their level. This only brings the sport into poor repute and makes the argument for compulsory training / licencing et all the stronger which will adversely effect us all.

I wish you well in your exploits.

 

[Kukri]

Even simpler; I recall that you have two mainsails - take one of them to a sail maker and get him to take forty square feet or so out of it (yes - it does need to be that sort of amount).

Reefing on the go can be done in a dinghy, but it is phenomenally complicated and frankly not worth it because you won't get a good set afterwards .

This is my father's RCC B class sailing canoe, c, 1923:

With a beam of 42" and no plank or trapeze, these boats HAD to reef... the system can be made out - the sliding gunter yard had a single halyard which was endless and passed down the mast to a friction clutch; the reef lines (yes, there is nothing new about fully battened mainsails) were secured to the halyard.

Oh, and the jib was roller reefing, too.

The tiny blocks and fittings needed to do all this were called "Canoe Jewellery"!

Getting a sail cut down is easy because the patches can be cut off and sewn on again. Don't forget a new Cunningham hole.

 

[dancrane]

Thanks Scruff. It's true, I've jabbered on so doubtfully and self-centredly in recent weeks, I can't blame anyone for suspecting I've got no idea what I'm doing.


Minn - that canoe picture is fabulous. I always think the early sailing canoes make everything since, look moderate. I stop and stare at the ICs in the dinghy pound, and think...what kind of brain looks at a boat which is that long and narrow, and concludes "yeah, needs a bigger sail, really..."

I take the point about a reef needing to be big enough to make a difference, cheers.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

We used to do without the jib as the first reef a lot of the time. Altering the old mainsail is a good idea too. Reef does need to be deep as you tend to set the reef before starting the sail - it can be done but it's not easy reefing an Osprey whilst under way.

I never carried a knife because I was on a trapeze - I usually had one because I always carry a knife when sailing but I can't think of why you'd want a knife for a trapeze boat more than any other. Never got near the forestay either. Caused a few awkward moments when trying to keep my weight as far aft as possible and wiped out the helm as result and ended up on top of the sail a few times but that's about it. Osprey's are very benign boats for the performance and fantastic sea boats. Even broaching can be comparatively gentle.

 

[Iain C]

Aaaarrrrggghhh!

Knives on trapeze boats so you can cut the wire (which you've already changed to D12) if it becomes entangled round your neck or similar. It's a life saver...end of. Google "Big Fish" knife...it's the safest.

Look, I know this is a yotty forum but would people please not keep on that reefed sails are the answer to everything. They are not. Setup and controls are. I will say that I've never sailed and Osprey, but I've sailed a Fireball for many years, and the rig tuning is almost identical.

Going upwind in a Fireball in 20kts with a mast thats 10mm too straight, a rig that's raked 2" too far forward, spreaders that are 20mm too long, just a bit too much board down, a rudder that isn't vertical , a shrunk bolt rope on your main and too much rig tension on, a kicker thats not powerful enough an outhaul and cunno that don't work properly...well frankly that is bloody difficult. Gust comes in, nothing responds properly, and SPLAT. Set the boat up properly on the other hand and it will sing...fingertip light on the rudder and absolutley flying, not being this untameable, uncooperative cow-bag.

Dan needs to spend some time getting these bits sorted...the boat is an old boat and does not need the latest gear,but what's on needs to work. All of it was as relevant to my first £100 wooden shed as it was to my Winder boat. As ever, it's a question of priorities. Shiny rowlocks or westsuits? Lazyjacks or controls that work? Time spent fairing foils or setting up rigs? Reduce sail area or foil area when needed?

 

[Searush]

If it's a cruising dinghy sort out a reef in the main first!

Spot on!

Dan, you are not even cruising yet, it would be bloody stupid to go buying racing kit at this stage.

Is Dan the alter ego of one of our more persistent trolls?

 

[dancrane]

Searush, enough of this troll-suspicion, please! I consult you gents because I want to know your points of view. You all have much more influence than perhaps you believe. I read, I consider, and sometimes I run breathless to the chandlery on your advice, other times I reject it utterly...but a "troll", I am not.

Thanks for taking the time to explain about tuning, Iain. I appreciate that it is vital for performance and controllability as the wind rises, and I certainly will try it, but...

...many aspects of my boat defy any millimetrically perfect adjustment, possibly even centimetric. I have the ideal mast-rake measurements memorised, but there's a good deal of floppiness in the old Osprey's whole set-up, and I don't think tuning my boat is going to be like following a formula with mathematically certain results...

...so, the play-it-safe reefed mainsail still sounds like an attractive alternative option to an unflattenable, untamable full-size one. It's an uncomfortable truth: my sails are saggy, my bolt-ropes are shrunken, my spreaders look like lolly-sticks (this sounds like a depressing day at the doctor's), and I don't have funds for replacements...

...but don't forget that I don't give a hoot about racing, I really am just a cruiser with a taste for planing - otherwise I would have bought a weighty Wayfarer.

On the Osprey, until I can afford foils, sails, spars & all the bits for adjusting them to the millimeter, I'll be happy to get 65% of what the boat could do new, 40 years ago. In more than a force 3, as long as the boat steers where she's pointed and doesn't terrify SWMBO, I'll be happy. So a cut-down mainsail is still on the cards.

I'm sorry it goes against your grain, Iain, because I can tell you're an expert and I value expertise. But I've got a spinnaker in a bag somewhere, and I've hardly looked at it since I bought the boat...meanwhile I spent a painful hour today fitting my rowlocks. And so it goes...

I get the point about the D12 trapeze wires though, thanks. I was looking at the set-up today, thinking that the adjustable rope-section of line closest to the wearer could easily be cut if necessary, but as you say, it mayn't be so simple when you're upside down in the dark water with a wire noose round the neck.

 

[Iain C]

Dan...you miss my point. I'm not saying that you need to buy any new gear at all (apart from trap strings). Just get what is on there working properly. It's amazing how many little bits of kit that unless they are set up right, combned together make your boat very, very difficult to sail. Problem is, unless someone points it out how it should work and how to use it, you'll probably never know, and will just end up cursing it. Centre jammer...case in point. Someone had suggested perhaps setting it up so it needed your foot to cleat it...seriously, that's not right.

Top tip for a flatter main for zero cost. The bolt rope is only stitched at the bottom. Get a stitch unpicker and undo the stitches. Peg the head and "milk" the luff down about 4" over the bolt rope. Re-stitch the bolt rope and hey presto, a much flatter main. Also, hoist it righ to the very top BEFORE attaching the boom...pull the boom down after you have cleated the halyard and attach the gooseneck. Does that look any better?

Wobbly mast. Probably side to side play in the mast gate. Old ice cream tubs and gaffer tape are your friends here. You do have something in front of the mast to stop it bending to the front of the gate when you apply kicker? Plastic chopping boards cut into a T shape work here. Main looking flatter still? Centreboard down upwind...yes, but only half of it when it gets windy!

OK, I concede, for non trapezing pottering a small main is fine...we did have big or small rigs on the 18 after all! But I guarantee you will get on easier of you just get someone who knows what they re doing to cast an eye over the boat...

 

[Lakesailor]

I consult you gents because I want to know your points of view. You all have much more influence than perhaps you believe. I read, I consider, and sometimes I run breathless to the chandlery on your advice, other times I reject it utterly...

We've noticed. If the advice doesn't fit with what you want to hear it gets rejected. Pointless you asking really. And pretty pointless for people to offer advice.
Unless they first ask "What do you want to hear?"

 

[dancrane]

Wobbly mast. Probably side to side play in the mast gate. Old ice cream tubs and gaffer tape are your friends here. You do have something in front of the mast to stop it bending to the front of the gate when you apply kicker? Plastic chopping boards cut into a T shape work here.

This is spooky, I did exactly that, last time out - used bits of chopping board which SWMBO found cheap at Asda (which I had thought would be too slim)...I cut two small pieces and duct-taped them either side of the mast, and...NO MOVEMENT AT ALL! Result. I haven't sliced up the rest of the board to fill the gap ahead of the mast yet - there are a set of gradually-disintegrating ply chocks in there. But I do take the point - even the old kit can be made to play ball.

Thanks for the bolt-rope tips. I'll investigate. Regarding the height to which the sail is set - I've noticed there's at least six inches of mast above the head of the sail, so I'll take your advice next time. I may be asking for quite a lot of your advice until I get it right!

Okay, here's an embarrassing photo...

View attachment 33378

...I'm guessing that I should have had the outhaul connected to the lower clew (barely visible), and the fact I'd hooked it to the upper one is the reason for the nasty taut line along the foot. But what I'm wondering, is why is there an upper eyelet, at all?

I reckon the cunningham was too tight there, and the halyard was laughably slack. I think this photo is when I hoisted them just to dry, hence the boat isn't on the beach.

I'll be glad to take tuning seriously, thanks for the hints.

 

[dancrane]

We've noticed. If the advice doesn't fit with what you want to hear it gets rejected. Pointless you asking really. And pretty pointless for people to offer advice.
Unless they first ask "What do you want to hear?"

Do you only offer advice if you can be certain it WILL be taken? Surely not? I value your input too, Lakey, but I won't guarantee changing tack according to your advice.

 

[Croak]

I know how to sail...

You clearly don't, from your questions and from your reply to the answers to your questions.

Trapeze...... you are having a laugh.

Just potter and enjoy yourself. You neither have the cash or skill to be playing with the big boys so just lower your expectations and enjoy just being on the wet stuff like most of the rest of us do.

Get your oars on, do a bit of rowing and a bit of fishing and stick the sail up to get you back home with the wind behind you.

 

[dancrane]

Get your oars on, do a bit of rowing and a bit of fishing and stick the sail up to get you back home with the wind behind you.

I hear that, thanks Croak.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Aaaarrrrggghhh!

Knives on trapeze boats so you can cut the wire (which you've already changed to D12) if it becomes entangled round your neck or similar. It's a life saver...end of. Google "Big Fish" knife...it's the safest.

Look, I know this is a yotty forum but would people please not keep on that reefed sails are the answer to everything. They are not. Setup and controls are. I will say that I've never sailed and Osprey, but I've sailed a Fireball for many years, and the rig tuning is almost identical.

Going upwind in a Fireball in 20kts with a mast thats 10mm too straight, a rig that's raked 2" too far forward, spreaders that are 20mm too long, just a bit too much board down, a rudder that isn't vertical , a shrunk bolt rope on your main and too much rig tension on, a kicker thats not powerful enough an outhaul and cunno that don't work properly...well frankly that is bloody difficult. Gust comes in, nothing responds properly, and SPLAT. Set the boat up properly on the other hand and it will sing...fingertip light on the rudder and absolutley flying, not being this untameable, uncooperative cow-bag.

Dan needs to spend some time getting these bits sorted...the boat is an old boat and does not need the latest gear,but what's on needs to work. All of it was as relevant to my first £100 wooden shed as it was to my Winder boat. As ever, it's a question of priorities. Shiny rowlocks or westsuits? Lazyjacks or controls that work? Time spent fairing foils or setting up rigs? Reduce sail area or foil area when needed?

Ah, I take it D12 is synthetic then? It is a long time since I've sailed Ospreys apart that one trip a year ago and trapeze wire was 1x19 stainless - that's all there was. I'd really have struggled to get that round my neck but I'll take your word for it as your experience is a lot more recent than mine. I'll disagree on the comparison to a Fireball though - whilst the rig set-up is broadly similar the Osprey doesn't handle anything like a Fireball. It'll be out in far higher sustained windspeeds (we often went out in a genuine Force 7) and it doesn't accelerate anything like as quickly as a Fireball. When you have two heavy crew or even 3 crew and high winds it is very necessary to reduce the sail area unless your are really, really good. If you don't keep the weight aft in those circumstances the bow digs in and you will usually broach. If you are one-up or have a light crew then you end up constantly dumping the main - you can depower the rig to an extent but not that much and you just end up going more slowly anyway. I've seen reefed Ospreys win races before.

More to the point Dan is still learning about Ospreys and isn't used to the boat and won't have it set up properly yet. In those circumstances and with his wife as crew reducing sail area has to be the best option.

 

[Twister_Ken]

...I'm guessing that I should have had the outhaul connected to the lower clew (barely visible), and the fact I'd hooked it to the upper one is the reason for the nasty taut line along the foot. But what I'm wondering, is why is there an upper eyelet, at all?

OK - my guess without actually seeing it. Yes - outhaul goes to clew cringle, not to the higher one.

You mention a cunningham. Role of the cringle above the clew is a flattener, haul down the cunningham and this cringle and you take cloth out of the bottom of the sail - making a sort of flap of sail above the boom. Acts to take some power out of the lower part of the sail. You probably wouldn't find this on a modern rig, but they were once fashionable, like kipper ties.

Is there a spare line at the outboard end of the boom (or at least, provision for one) which would correspond with my theory?

Anyone named the boat Yellow Peril, yet?

 

[Iain C]

Dan

There's a certain irony in your photo entitled "Osprey main not well set.jpg" when the jib is up in the air like that! There's a number of improvements you can make without spending a bean which will make the boat far easier to sail.

grumpy_o_g, bit of a thread drift but I'm very surprised about your comments on Osprey v Fireball. IMHO the Fireball is THE boat that has a reputation as a heavy wind weapon (and also the 420). At Abersoch 2003 we were still racing in winds that were gusting at 43kts on the SCYC anemometer, the same race where 12 RS400s broke thier rigs. The old issues with cockpits filling up in waves were resolved many years ago when the Fireball went to the "wide bow" design, exploiting build tolerances, ditched the chute for bags, and added drain tubes in the transom. As well as being very "safe" in serious wind, they are also very, very fast, and very little will touch a Fireball on handicap in serious wind.

D12/V12 and derivatives are indeed a very easily spliced, coverless synthetic fibre, very good for high load, no creep applications. Anything that used to be wire on a older boat now tends to be D12...there's an I14 at my club where even the standing rigging is also D12.