What is the yacht sales market doing?

[Champagne Murphy]

I think there’s a waiting list at Pin Mill

Yes, there is, but that is because it’s a specially lovely spot and because of Gus and Sarah at Kings. Woolverstone have vacant buoys round the corner...

Mmmm.... absolutely true about Gus and Sarah but Woolverstone, I think, has never really recovered from the MD of MDL telling the assembled owner/users that he was going to charge them until the pips squeaked. To their faces, mind you. It has remained blighted from then as an unfriendly and completely commercial enterprise. Whether that remains the truth, I don’t know.

 

[sailaboutvic]

This thread is totally misleading, bogus.

I know over a hundred cruiser owners at my club for a start, in Chichester and Langstone harbours, with good boats who are all keen to work on their boats themselves and help chums around - we are an all volunteer club inc working on the half tide moorings ( some have deep water or marina berths in summer ), but I'd suggest most except me are hardly scrabbling peasants, members include specialists for Rolls Royce and a fair few airline pilots.

We have new young cruiser members, usually with young families from various professional backgrounds for whom help from engines to sailing is always forthcoming if they need it.

This talk of ' everyone is giving up and chartering 'is just from a biased few, proper boat ownership is alive, well and doing better than for the last couple of decades.

Has sea jet says , its all a bit of a miff ,we cruising Italy at the moment , and although anchorage are empty due week days , come Friday night , there are over flowing ,
Here in Italy boating is a socal thing , family's and friends raft up at times six or seven boats at anchor out comes the BBQ , beer and boat toys and everyone seen to have a great time , I lost count the amount of times someone arrived in a dinghy and asked us to join them .
unless things have change back home , very rarely did we have contact with others when we anchored in the east coast rivers .

 

[steve yates]

A good friend of mine has just bought new. He said that there was not much used available and all the good used boats were getting sold very quickly (he was looking for a 40-45ft yacht under 5 years old).

At the other end of the scale, there seems to be an over-supply of older, smaller boats.

Thats not surprising that there are very few used boats under 5 years for sale, its not like car sales. If someone buys a new boat, its generally to keep for quite a long time. The depreciation hit on selling a 3 year old bavaria must be enormous. You could probably charter 4 times a year for less

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

I think sailing is perceived as expensive for much the same reason as many other things are perceived as expensive these days - people are not willing to come in at the bargain basement end and work their way up. My first car was an old banger that cost a few tens of pounds - and it was many years before I could afford anything much less than ten years old. When my wife and I bought our first house we had absolutely nothing - no furniture, no fridge, no washing machine.... we spent the first couple of months there sleeping on a second-hand mattress on the floor and cooking on a single ring camping gas stove. Our first boat was thirty five years old and cost £250 on eBay... These days, an entry level sailing boat is considered to be at least 30 foot with three cabins, a luxury galley and fully equipped shower. Unsurprisingly, anything filling the bill will be a significant number of tens of thousands of pounds.

+1

 

[Seajet]

So how come Anderson 22's are changing hands at a rate of knots - 5 in new hands in the last month that I know of - at least 2 with 3-4 young kids, and to apparently well off middle class families ?

Not everyone is of the useless type who can't change a car wheel, and some people still have the spirit to sail a responsive boat not a lardarse caravan, it may be news but weekends and holidays on a well equipped & designed 22' are not even ' Swallows And Amazons ' territory, especially nowadays with showers and meals inc breakfasts freely available.

 

[JumbleDuck]

So how come Anderson 22's are changing hands at a rate of knots - 5 in new hands in the last month that I know of - at least 2 with 3-4 young kids, and to apparently well off middle class families ?

You know I rate the A22, so I hope you won't mind if I ask the obvious question: how come Anderson 22's are being sold at a rate of knots - 5 got rid of in the last month that you know of ...?

 

[Seajet]

More to the point, 5 bought in the last month; one I know is selling because the owner has a job going various places abroad so can't use his boat, another is due to his four chidren - plus him and wife - outgrowing the four berth boat, another is going to Greece after a long ownership ( there are already A22's in Cyprus, Ireland, Ukraine, Norway, Holland, France, Spain, Italy, Vietnam ) so I don't see anything unusual in boats changing hands, except these ones seem to stay in the same ownership probably more than most.

 

[Halo]

i think young people are different. Many want to try something a couple of times and then move on. They are more interested in experiences than ownership. Many rent houses, lease cars, and if they get married they do so later in life than previous generations. They also spend a lot more time on electronic games and mobile phone apps whilst working longer hours. I dont think many want to spend their leisure hours mending the heads or servicing engines - even in exchange for being able to afford real life adventures at sea .

 

[obmij]

Yeah, you see, I got bit quite hard when I went bargain basement hunting for cars. I learned a valuable lesson. Don't buy privately, buy from someone who has got something to lose. As for house buying, I wish I wish I could buy a dingy flat in the back end of wales with nothing in it. Unfortunately, mortgage provider says no, thus I'm stuck renting (albeit a larger house at a cheaper price than the mortgage company was prepared to offer).

I really wouldn't mind if the boat was sixty years old, provided it had a bed, toilet area and would float for more than a few days at a time (being having to be hoisted out to be drained). I'd still need somewhere to moor it though and that's much harder that it seems but I have 'issues' that restrict the locations (I care not for amenities).

Clearly I'm learning a valuable lesson here. Sailing is clearly not for people like me. (But I'm being stubborn and insisting anyway).

Edit:

Wansworth, some of us want to do more with boats for longer periods of time .

You cannot equate buying a boat with buying a car any more than you would equate the the process to buying an elephant. A completely different mindset and expectations are required at every stage. Responsibility is key..ultimately you as the purchaser are responsible for satisfying yourself that the condition of the boat is as you require. There is no way of getting around this either during purchase or ownership.

I guess the above may be why participation in sailing is falling. There is no way to economically offer an experience similar to that of car or gadget ownership.

On the plus side, for those who are willing to crack on and invest the time, and perhaps pay for expertise at critical stages then sailing has never been cheaper or more accessible.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You cannot equate buying a boat with buying a car any more than you would equate the the process to buying an elephant. A completely different mindset and expectations are required at every stage. Responsibility is key..ultimately you as the purchaser are responsible for satisfying yourself that the condition of the boat is as you require. There is no way of getting around this either during purchase or ownership.

I respectfully disagree. Buying a car seems to me to be very similar indeed to buying a boat, except that you have a surveyor to help you assess a second-hand boat while ultimately you as the purchaser are responsible for satisfying yourself that the condition of the car is as you require. The rituals are different, but that's because second hand cars are generally cheap and cheerful. My Citroen DS is worth at least twice as much as my boat and if I was buying another of that sort of value I would do it every bit as cautiously as buying a boat.

 

[obmij]

To be more specific I'd say that it is virtually impossible to buy a used boat with a warranty, whereas this is commonplace with used cars. Ownership is also more regulated for average vehicles with an MOT being mandatory for most cars on the road today. Aftermarket warranty products do not really exist for boats and recovery services, outside of MRCC coordinated rescue are not widely available.

So I think it can be wise to approach the two with a different mindset.

Obviously does not apply to classic cars such as your Citroen DS (magnificent vehicle, I wish I had the time)

 

[shaunksb]

My Citroen DS is worth at least twice as much as my boat and if I was buying another of that sort of value I would do it every bit as cautiously as buying a boat.

Your point is even more valid as you can, and people do, get an AA/RAC inspection of a car.

______________________

 

[Babylon]

i think young people are different.

[...]

I don't think many want to spend their leisure hours mending the heads or servicing engines - even in exchange for being able to afford real life adventures at sea .

I think that you are largely correct, sadly. Moreover, things like servicing the engine IS actually all part of 'real life' - these things combine with the sailing itself, the beautiful sunset at anchor, the meal you cooked from fresh ingredients, etc, to make up the full experience, the activity in depth if you like.

Hard though to see this when you've set out in adult life pre-loaded with debt from a degree half the university population should never have been 'sold' in the first place, unable to likely ever own even an 80% scale new-built starter-home, having been conditioned into compliant consumerist safety since childhood, your sense of achievement having been formed by repeatedly swiping a small piece of glass rather than making anything from raw materials, knowing how to mend a puncture in your bicycle tyre, etc.

 

[Tam Lin]

This thread is totally misleading, bogus.

I know over a hundred cruiser owners at my club for a start, in Chichester and Langstone harbours, with good boats who are all keen to work on their boats themselves and help chums around - we are an all volunteer club inc working on the half tide moorings ( some have deep water or marina berths in summer ), but I'd suggest most except me are hardly scrabbling peasants, members include specialists for Rolls Royce and a fair few airline pilots.

We have new young cruiser members, usually with young families from various professional backgrounds for whom help from engines to sailing is always forthcoming if they need it.

This talk of ' everyone is giving up and chartering 'is just from a biased few, proper boat ownership is alive, well and doing better than for the last couple of decades.

I agree. Our club is booming on both the dinghy and cruiser side. I think we have more members than ever. This is due to a forward thinking leadership catering for what people want. I know of several other clubs locally who are also doing well and moving with the times.

 

[maby]

To be more specific I'd say that it is virtually impossible to buy a used boat with a warranty, whereas this is commonplace with used cars.

.....

I think you are comparing two different segments of the second-hand market in this statement. You are comparing the market for private sales of middle-aged or older boats with the market for nearly new cars. There is an active market for cars sold at a year old or less, by a franchised dealer of the manufacturer and sold with a significant warranty. These are generally showroom demonstrators and salesmen's cars and I've always had the impression that it is a relatively artificial market encouraged by the car manufacturers in order to give them the opportunity to offer hidden discounts that don't pull down the headline price too much.

There is also a big market for private sales of older second hand cars - person to person. These don't come with any warranty - definitely a case of "buyer beware"...

Both these second-hand markets exist for boats as well. Our second boat was a demonstrator (actually the boat show display model) sold to us by the dealer with a significant warranty - pretty much equivalent to the warranty on the same boat delivered new from the manufacturer. We part-exchanged it against a brand new boat a few years later and the dealer who took it in part-exchange sold it on with a shorter warranty. Of course, a lot of middle-aged or older boat sales are direct owner to new purchaser private transactions and they will not have any more warranty than the equivalent car sales transactions.

 

[AlwaysLearning]

Hi I dont think the yacht market is falling away, i think the locality of the purchased is changing, i have sailed in the UK for the past 10 years, whilst i have honed my skills under the strict brash British weather taking the time to understand the tidal streams, not always getting it right. and paying for expensive overnight mooring ( MDL or privately owned Marinas)
I think more couples go sailing now, both young and older and a lot of females dont want harsh British weather conditions, they want to be able to get off, but fresh produce, cook sunbath and go for dinner in the evening, ashore. we men now include our partners in what we spend out time on, and they certainly have a voice, sailing in Europe is actually quite nice and relaxing, whilst in Greece i was told if they dont collect money you dont pay, which to me, when i didn't have to pay for mooring i would spend more money ashore. in conclusion, the market is improving, it is where we choose to do it is what has changed

 

[Cheesey69]

Hi,
Been an owner for 3 years and under 40!
Housing costs are going to stop a lot of people but then again my craft cost 10 grand, a car loan really.
But for me, its the incredible cost of anything with the word marine in, associated with or connected to, marine.
And getting things done, especially where i sail seems stuck in the last century when it comes to modern communications.
Before I joined my club I was going to chuck it all in, could not get work done when i wanted it. Overcharging marinas really did not to work on my boat but happy to take my money to be stuck in a mud hole for hours at a time.
Then I joined my club and things are looking up, people are great and I'm working on my boat and loving it but its not a walk ashore, its a swinging mooring and about a grand and half cheaper than the cheapest marina around and that has put off a lot of my mates who could afford to buy a boat.
The smaller classes are doing well until things get bigger and moving things around by hand is a no go.

 

[chriss999]

Yeah, you see, I got bit quite hard when I went bargain basement hunting for cars. I learned a valuable lesson. Don't buy privately, buy from someone who has got something to lose. As for house buying, I wish I wish I could buy a dingy flat in the back end of wales with nothing in it. Unfortunately, mortgage provider says no, thus I'm stuck renting (albeit a larger house at a cheaper price than the mortgage company was prepared to offer).

I really wouldn't mind if the boat was sixty years old, provided it had a bed, toilet area and would float for more than a few days at a time (being having to be hoisted out to be drained). I'd still need somewhere to moor it though and that's much harder that it seems but I have 'issues' that restrict the locations (I care not for amenities).

Clearly I'm learning a valuable lesson here. Sailing is clearly not for people like me. (But I'm being stubborn and insisting anyway).

Edit:

Wansworth, some of us want to do more with boats for longer periods of time .

With respect, that is not my experience. I’ve moved from a laser to a 50+ year old bilge keeler. Purchase price for similar will be £2k or less. You can spend as much (or as little) money and time as you like on refits and equipment, but even without upgrading I don’t see why you can’t have a great time and see more of the country. I sailed mine locally for 5 years and have just sailed 300+ miles in my first long solo trip.
You can do the same if you want to. Find a supportive local club or get advice from people around the boat yard if you find one where people are working on their boats. Advice here is excellent, free and plentiful. I spend the same on my boat as I would have done if I’d got a better car.

 

[lw395]

I did a lot of sailing when I had no cash at all.
Racing crew, deliveries, club rallies on other people's boats.

 

[Perrycas]

Hi,

But for me, its the incredible cost of anything with the word marine in, associated with or connected to, marine.
And getting things done, especially where i sail seems stuck in the last century when it comes to modern communications.
...

Couldn't agree more. You have to look for alternative parts that don't have 'marine' in their names. It can work at times. As i mentioned in my first post I do wonder what will happen to Marinas when they realise that looking after their customers interests is actually looking after their own interests. World wide.