What is the legal position?...

[Appleyard]

Re the Napoli cargo?.... On the ITV News tonight it was reported that " Police have cordoned off the beaches to prevent looting" I was under the impression that anything washed up on the coast was fair game for anyone to pick up and lay claim to. What is the law regarding this?

 

[Sixpence]

I always thought it was classified as salvage and if people got hold of it they had rights of salvage , but there's no cordons out in the open water if anyone fancies nipping out for a container of perfume

 

[Rabbie]

See - http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-dops_environmental/mcga-dops_row_receiver_of_wreck.htm
'Wreck' is defined to include cargo. Providing the finder reports the wreck to the Receiver, then he (the finder) can claim for salvage. Hefty punishments for helping yourself!.

 

[Appleyard]

So are the police thus entitled to cordon off the beaches?

 

[Rabbie]

I would assume they are acting under the jurisdiction of the Receiver who is legally responsible for the safe keeping of the wreck/cargo until the owner is found. In this case it is obvious where the wreck has come from.

 

[AIDY]

I thought you could salvage it.. Unless they are worried that some containers may carry harmful substances. And then i would expect them to shut beaches off to the looters.

 

[Rustyknight]

From being in the area today, the reason for sealing off roads and beaches was given as "Public safety" due to the nature of contents some of the containers were carrying.

I think the MCA also declared a 3 mile exclusion zone for the same reasons.

At Beer, where 2 containers had come ashore, the police were taping the access to that part of the beach off. They then had to obtain the serial number for the containers, and radio them up the chain of command so the contents could be checked off as safe or not....... though the spillage from one looked to be brand new gear boxes and pressings. Hardly something the average tripper could carry away. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Bru]

Salvage belongs to the original owner. A salvor is entitled to a proportion of the value of the salvage as determined by agreement between the owner and the salvor or by the courts.

If the owner cannot be traced and the salvage is not claimed within 12 months, the salvage is the property of the Crown. The salvor will be entitled to a proportion of the value again determined by due legal process

You can't, legally, go and grab stuff of a shipwreck and keep it (remember Whiskey Galore?!!?)

 

[Rustyknight]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't, legally, go and grab stuff of a shipwreck and keep it (remember Whiskey Galore?!!?)

[/ QUOTE ]

This subject did come up this afternoon with 2 of the "boys in blue" guarding two containers. When the converstaion got round to "rip off Britain", I think we were all a bit disappointed to see only car parts spilling out onto the rocks! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Bajansailor]

Re "You can't, legally, go and grab stuff of a shipwreck and keep it (remember Whiskey Galore?!!?)"

That rule does not seem to apply out here in the Windies - rather, any vessel that comes ashore or is wrecked is regarded as fair game, and whoever gets there first stakes a claim to it - this is what happened when First Light came ashore a year ago - here is a link to my post about it : http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1310711/an/0/page/4#1310711

Salvors were carting off everything they could, including nice 3 speed sheet winches, ropes, anchors and cables, even the mast and rigging..... I think there is supposed to be a rule that the wreck is the property of the Receiver of Wrecks, but no one seems to know exactly how it should be applied....the two policemen who turned up to observe proceedings did not appear to be very enthusiastic about enforcing this rule..... our little survey company was Lloyds Agent here (we recently resigned at the end of December) and the local police station phoned me up to ask if it was OK with Lloyds for people to help themselves.... I declined to say yes or no, and suggested that they consult with higher authority re this matter......

It will be interesting to see what eventually happens to the Napoli and her cargo.

 

[tangomoon]

It is wreck and go here
http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-enviro...report_form.htm

to get your form before hitting the beach BUT the Wreck and Salvage Act 2004 is probably worth a read first as to eligibility. What a bonanza though! More info here

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-enviro...ops_row_law.htm

Addendum - some years ago a heap of people 'salvaged a boat that had come ashore under some cliffs. An enterprising chap claimed his rights to the wreck THEN went and sat at the road all had to use and as 'salvors came along, fully laden he (with the help of the constable) required them to put the stuff in a heap and go home. Now that's enterprising! Possession is 9/10 of the law so refuse to let go and wave your form!

 

[Ross1]

The salvor is entitled to what I believe to be approx 25% value of the salvaged item. However anything above the Low water mark on a beach belongs to 'The Crown Estate' and therefore no claim can be made. If however the item is beyond the low water mark salvage can be made and as ownership is 9/10 of the law I would hold the salvage until an agreemant of terms has been agreed by the original owner!

In most of cases they will not care as they will claim on insurance and you will end up keeping what you have slavaged!

 

[BrendanS]

as has been said a few times already. It's not salvage. It's wreck, and there are plenty of articles available if you google on the subject, or search the forums.

 

[oldharry]

Apparently some of the containers have BMW motorbikes in them..... so if we see Devon Police riding around on new Beemers next week we will all know why the cordoned off the beaches. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[peterb]

If I remember correctly, one or more of the containers had perfume. That will be liable to Excise duty, and may be part of the reason for sealing off the beach.

 

[FWB]

This would make a good subject for one of the Magazines, instead of 'how I cocked up again and lessons learned'
They could get a lawyer to spell out exactly how many motorbikes we can legally drive off with. Would be nice to have it properly defined, and it is a nautical topic.

 

[Guest]

I think that the idea of salvage, very broadly speaking, is that you're entitled to a reasonable fee for your salvage efforts. The fee reflects how much effort and risk you went to in rescuing the salvaged boat, and also how desperate the owner is (bargaining power). So if you had to cross a storm tossed ocean to risk life and limb to save life and limb and ship then you're entitled to a lot.

Picking bits up off a beach probably entitles you to about 10p...

 

[BrendanS]

picking bits of a beach isn't salvage. It's wreck, unless parts or whole boat?

 

[Guest]

Can't claim to be an expert but on the face of it I don't see why you salvage rules shouldn't apply to freight washed up on the beach. Salvage operation is defined in international law by the 1989 International Convention on Salvage as "any act or activity undertaken to assist a vessel or any other property in danger in navigable waters or in any other waters whatsoever". And the fact that it's on the beach may not be fatal, as it's still in the water, and "Property" means any property not permanently and intentionally attached to the shoreline and includes freight at risk".

Of course, as a salvor your duty is to hand it over to the owner. Keeping it for yourself is just plain and simple theft.

The salvor's fee is worked out like this:-

"The reward shall be fixed with a view to encouraging salvage operations, taking into account the following criteria without regard to the order in which they are presented below:

(a) the salved value of the vessel and other property;

(b) the skill and efforts of the salvors in preventing or minimizing damage to the environment;

(c) the measure of success obtained by the salvor;

(d) the nature and degree of the danger;

(e) the skill and efforts of the salvors in salving the vessel, other property and life;

(f) the time used and expenses and losses incurred by the salvors;

(g) the risk of liability and other risks run by the salvors or their equipment;

(h) the promptness of the services rendered;

(i) the availability and use of vessels or other equipment intended for salvage operations;

(j) the state of readiness and efficiency of the salvor's equipment and the value thereof.

...

The rewards, exclusive of any interest and recoverable legal costs that may be payable thereon, shall not exceed the salved value of the vessel and other property."

You're also entitled to extra "special compensation" if the salvage work is saving the environment. I suppose the classic example is oil washed up on the beach, which further reinforces the impression that salvage does apply to cargo washed up.

 

[BrendanS]

tho doesn't wreck, flotsam, etc etc more applicable here?