what is the best sailing bilge keeler

[Tranona]

I think your views are coloured by where you sail. In the south west, the bristiol channel and on the east coast, drying harbours and estuaries are still the most common berths / stopovers. I was sat in the cabin of my boat in Helford last week looking at places to visit between the Lizard and Rame head and there were loads of little interesting places I could not visit like Polperro for example. Lots of places beginning "Porth".

And there arent lots of bilges available except lots of old knackered Brit boats. There's just a few like Legend ( would you buy one?) and that froggie wooden thing RM.

My guess is that the issue is going to get more important because our planning laws usually prevent the building of new marinas. Already we are seeing the bilge version of a boat selling for more than the fin.

Well, I sail in Poole where we have plenty of mud and quite a few drying moorings.

The point I was making is that the overall market for cruising yachts is no longer UK centric and the vast majority are sold where drying is not an issue.

So the UK requirement is but a tiny bit of the overall demand, so manufacturers aren't interested. The Legends made a big thing of offering twin keels, but actually sold very few, for the same reason that you can't buy many new boats under 30ft - the new price is disproportionate to the cost of (arguably) superior used boats. Why pay £50k+ for a new 30ft Legend when you can get a fine Sadler 29 for less than half that?

Maybe there will be a resurgence in demand for new twin keel boats - but I doubt it. There is even less likelihood of expansion of shallow moorings than there is of marina berths, so it is only ever going to be replacement of existing boats, which stubbornly refuse to die!

 

[rwoofer]

The best sailing/fastest twin keelers for their hull length would be either an RM or a Heol 7.4 not that I've sailed the latter, but it looked quick, quick, quick!

There's a 360 of the interior here

An updated version of the Heol is this one:

http://www.go-catamaran.com/monocoque-indigoyacht.php?ref=23

Lots of other high performing french twin keelers as well:

http://www.go-catamaran.com/monocoque-indigoyacht.php?ref=23

http://www.mareehaute.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=61

 

[Seajet]

Please allow me to put my BORG - Boat Owners Response Group - hat on for a moment...

As mentioned, swinging moorings are unlikely to be allowed to expand, to put it mildly; if in a position to do so, for pity's sake mark unused moorings with at least a buoyant plastic milk bottle or similar, with the mooring no. / identity displayed.

Future attempts to resurrect existing moorings will be treated as trying to establish new ones if they're not clearly marked, and we know how much chance that has !

 

[Pete7]

Maybe there will be a resurgence in demand for new twin keel boats - but I doubt it. There is even less likelihood of expansion of shallow moorings than there is of marina berths, so it is only ever going to be replacement of existing boats, which stubbornly refuse to die!

No I doubt it as well, but with Solent marinas charging the thick end of 5k for a 30 ft yacht there is a demand for less expensive moorings and therefore probably drying berths, so a demand for good second hand twin keeled yachts.

Anyway tomorrow to save myself £400, I will drop her onto the club scrubbing grid and finish the antifouling

Pete

 

[muyuu]

Hunter still makes bilge keelers, with modern interiors and respectable performance. I've heard good things about the Hunter Horizon 27 twin keel.

 

[Tranona]

Hunter still makes bilge keelers, with modern interiors and respectable performance. I've heard good things about the Hunter Horizon 27 twin keel.

In reality they are only built to order and not sure anybody is ordering them! There is however, quite a good supply of relatively recent boats on the market.

 

[mcframe]

Hunter still makes bilge keelers, with modern interiors and respectable performance. I've heard good things about the Hunter Horizon 27 twin keel.

From me? ;->

In reality they are only built to order and not sure anybody is ordering them! There is however, quite a good supply of relatively recent boats on the market.

Oh no there isn't!

Ok, my 1990 one was neither built to (my) order, nor qualifies as "recent", but I *can't* find anything to consider replacing it with for less than twice[0] the current value, I plan to continue to fit mine out with cheaper-than-new-boat kit like heating, fridge and parasail.

Eventually, when it gets too small for us+children, I'll spend some of the mooring-savings on annual charter in the Med.

Keeping a clean bottom, using the tides and trimming the (decent) sails[1] is far cheaper than buying another 8 feet of LOA (and 5 feet of LWL) - OK, you need a reasonable base to start from, and the Hunter T/K suits me.

[0] <sideways glance> at Moody S31, and older Southerleys...
[1] Ever noticed that random J-boats tend to sail better than random Westerlys? What's the average age of sails?

 

[Seajet]

The 'older' Southerlies have the sailing qualities of a brick, but lifting keels usually lead to a higher performance boat than twin keels.

The French Ovni boats are pretty wonderful, but have price tags to match; the British Anderson 26 is a little known masterpiece, designed with input from the 1979 Fastnet disaster, but only about 15 were made before Andersons went bust ( no fault of the A26, they lost their MOD contract, but do get a survey if looking at an A26, backing pads are sometimes skimped ) - Conyer Marine took the moulds and made a few more.

A deceptively fast & seaworthy boat, a real wolf in sheeps' clothing, with safety bulwarks, unsinkable foam buoyancy & electric lift keel. Also built in grounding legs but these are wisely ignored by modern owners.

I am not on any commission !

There's always the Barracuda if one's feeling brave...

 

[Tranona]

From me? ;->



Oh no there isn't!

Ok, my 1990 one was neither built to (my) order, nor qualifies as "recent", but I *can't* find anything to consider replacing it with for less than twice[0] the current value, I plan to continue to fit mine out with cheaper-than-new-boat kit like heating, fridge and parasail.

Eventually, when it gets too small for us+children, I'll spend some of the mooring-savings on annual charter in the Med.

Keeping a clean bottom, using the tides and trimming the (decent) sails[1] is far cheaper than buying another 8 feet of LOA (and 5 feet of LWL) - OK, you need a reasonable base to start from, and the Hunter T/K suits me.

[0] <sideways glance> at Moody S31, and older Southerleys...
[1] Ever noticed that random J-boats tend to sail better than random Westerlys? What's the average age of sails?

You misunderstand me. Hunters are now built to order by Lauren Marine - not talking about 20 years ago when they were regular production boats available as kits or complete.

They were however in full production with Select Yachts untill recently and there are secondhand ones available - just like any other SH boat. Whether they are good value purchases is another matter. There are indeed relatively few of this style of boats built in recent years for the reasons discussed throughout this thread.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

The differences between twin and single keel are very clear and very different. I used to sail fast fin keel yachts and now I sail slower bilge keel yachts; I used to point very close to the wind, I do not any more, I used to be restricted going to places because of the draft and ability to dry out, I don't any more, I had to pay a lot for mooring, I do not any more, I used to use the engine less, I use the engine more; etc

You can have good sailing in both fin or twin keels, the main issue is that "good sailing" does not necessarily mean "faster sailing".

By the way, In the Mediterranean sea you will not see a bilge keel boat, because there is no reason; simple.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

As mentioned, swinging moorings are unlikely to be allowed to expand, to put it mildly;

Away from the flesh pots of the south coast, I reckon you are wrong. Certainly new marina berths are getting difficult for planning reasons just like every iother sort of new building but there are lots of estuary and river moorings up the west coast and east coasts. But usually these are moorings that dry.

I guess this is why I pay £1500 for a pontoon marina berth rather than the 7k that is would cost me in Poole for a 36 footer - there are plenty of cheap alternatives. Indeed, one of my clubs still charges £15 pa for a mooring and has them available I believe. Another includes a free mooring in the £200 annual membership.

The solent / south coast is totally unrepresentative of the UK situation as a whole.

 

[Tranona]

There may well be surplus moorings now - probably largely because of lack of demand, not being where people want to sail!

The constraints in the future will come from environm,entalists seeking to restrict any human activity that does not meet their approval.

BTW not all Poole moorings are expensive. I pay far less than you for my marina berth for a 37 footer! You just have to be patient and wait 25 years or more as a member of a certain club! Forward planning is all.

 

[LadyInBed]

two main types : bilge plates and encapsulated

You don't say in what size/price range you are looking.
Encapsulated are more aerodynamic and tend not to fall off.
Bilge plates are easier to inspect.
Another option is a lifting keel, but they have there set of problems / benefits.

I am more than happy with my bk Colvic Countess 33, the type of keel was not high on the list of desires, but made my river mooring a non issue.

 

[Theshipscat]

The original post was what is the best sailing bilge keeler not what's best fin or bilge.
All boats are a compromise in one way or another. Even different types of bilge keelers. I sail a Seawolf 30 designed by David Feltham to prove you could build a fast bilge keeler, in light winds she'll point as high as many fin keelers and go just as fast. At 11 knots of wind you can feel her lift and go while many boats are struggling. The reason for this is a good
hull shape, cleverly designed keels and a whopping 13.5 m mast. The down side of this is she needs to be reefed very early. In light to medium winds she eats Moody 31s's, sadlers, fand fulmars for breakfast in heavy stuff they can keep more cloth up so the rolls can be reversed. It also depends on tides my boat is far better in fair tide than not, if wind and tide are together it's bloody hard going. So I guess you have to ask your self "what sailing am I going to do". If it's f3/4/5 which is for me and many other cruisers is the optimum then find yourself a Seawolf, if you plan on sailing in the higher winds get a fulmar or a moody 31s but they going to cost you £10k and £25k more respectively. That doesn't mean SW can't handle the rough stuff we sailed back from Falmouth in 6/7/8s.
On the subject of keels mine fit into slots and have 8 huge bolts each and have never leaked. Mooring costs in a certain club that Seajet and I are both in £130 a year, however I keep her in Chichester Marina because I like it. And Seajet you tinker you are on commission
with Andersons, he's the head honcho in the owners club but as he says they're great boats.
Mad Hatter Pm if you fancy coming out one day?

Just thought I'd add, my last boat was a swing keel, never and I mean never again

 

[rwoofer]

The original post was what is the best sailing bilge keeler not what's best fin or bilge.
<snip>
Just thought I'd add, my last boat was a swing keel, never and I mean never again

Sounds like a Seawolf is equivalent to the modern french twin keelers (RM, Kerkana, Heol...).

Interested in your last comment, as I may be going down the lift/swing keeler route myself, albeit in the 20 foot range.

 

[Theshipscat]

keel seized on the bearings. Which then caused the plates holding the pivot to come away from the actual keel. It cost me over a grand to get fixed. The engineer also straightend the keel as he thought it was warped. I got it all back together and the keel wouldn't go up into the box, it had been warped deliberately to fit. Everything was removed again and put through a press to warp it back. It was ok for a while and then two of the bolts popped out.
To me anything mechanical that can't be got at while it's in the water is trouble.

I wouldn't say they were as good as an RM, an RM is a much more modern design (incidently I saw a French flagged 1040 off Cowes on Saturday beautiful) and at least costs three times as much.

 

[muyuu]

I wouldn't say they were as good as an RM, an RM is a much more modern design (incidently I saw a French flagged 1040 off Cowes on Saturday beautiful) and at least costs three times as much.

They are fast, but I bet they are really stable inverted. These speed/seaworthiness trade-offs were well known in the 70s and 80s.

 

[Tranona]

Not sure why you are showing that photo - that boat is nothing like an RM!

 

[muyuu]

Not sure why you are showing that photo - that boat is nothing like an RM!

Similar beam to length ratio, that's all.

70s and 80s hull designs were as modern as it gets for displacement boats. Light displacement, semi-displacement, foils are faster but they are not as seaworthy (unless your boat is 100ft long, then it doesn't matter).

Some would say a 24ft won't be good for offshore anyway. Fair play, it may be a good idea to make a planing hull for that size. But the trade-off is there.

 

[Theshipscat]

Similar beam to length ratio, that's all.

70s and 80s hull designs were as modern as it gets for displacement boats. Light displacement, semi-displacement, foils are faster but they are not as seaworthy (unless your boat is 100ft long, then it doesn't matter).

Some would say a 24ft won't be good for offshore anyway. Fair play, it may be a good idea to make a planing hull for that size. But the trade-off is there.

Sorry I don't get it? What are you comparing?