what is the best sailing bilge keeler

Madhatter

Madhatter

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this is a serious question ?
I have read all sorts of comments about them and their qualities ( or lack of ), also that there seems to be two main types : bilge plates and encapsulated .
Opinions seem to be a loss of speed between fin/drop keel and BKs
What do the panel think ?
 
Impossible to say as you do not have a reference point nor a defintion of "best"

In general terms later designs that incorporate aerofoil keel shapes, some toe in and usually a fair amount of draft are better than earlier designs with shallow draft and vertical keels. David Thomas designs such as the Hunters have particularly good reputations. David Feltham (of Cobra fame) also did a lot of work on improving the efficiency of twin keeled boats. Bilge keel Sadlers and Westerly Fulmars similarly perform well - see the PY ratings for the differences with fin keels.

This subject has been done to death over the years in both forum discussions and comparative tests (although a long time ago as virtually no bilge or twin keel boats are made these days). However, for ultimate twin keel performance you could look at the French RM yachts - however, they are nothing like the typical British twin keel boats.
 
I di some research on this recently and found a contemporary yacht designers website with an article effectively saying that with the right design twin keels can be better than a deep fin. Can't remember the site but they presented a fairly convincing argument, although I suspect there will be lots of counter arguments :-)
 
As Tranona says, the topic has been done to death here and hereabouts, and it is a subject which tends to generate much more heat than light.

If by "best sailing" you mean fastest, you might find it illuminating to look at the Portsmouth Yardstick numbers of vessels you are interested in.
 
Thank you all for your contributions to this thread and apologies for bringing it up again.
It just seems to me to be the logical keel configuration for cruising boats :-
Dries out upright.
Shallow draught.
No cradle needed.
No intrusion into cabin.
Less vulnerable to grounding.
Etc.
And yet not the most popular set up (these days ) ,mind you I may be wrong there :D
 
I think the golden phrase missing here is 'wetted area drag' ( nothing to do with being a boat ! ).

Twin keelers - NB 'bilge keelers' technically means boats with a central ballast keel and drying out plates on the bilge sides - have the snag that if going aground they usually stay parked there for the tide, as there's no quick way to reduce draught, heeling only serves to increase it.

Shallow draught is not such a blessing; if sailing coastal or offshore, remember surface drift; after a strong wind has been blowing for a day or two, the whole upper surface layer of the sea, down to about 1 metre, is set flowing in that direction; this is one reason why deep fin keel boats consistently out-perform shallow fins, let alone twin keelers.

Twin keelers going to windward in a sea often suffer heavy 'thumping' on the windward keel as it is lifted near surface level, this can be more than annoying, preventing off-watch crew from sleeping.

The idea of 'ditch crawling' using shallow draught is a bit of a myth, there's not much difference between 3 or 4,5 feet depth when risking going aground, especially if there are even slight waves.

Twin keelers also suffer huge splaying loads when left drying out then refloating on mud, use your imagination as to the awful forces at work !

I've known twin keeler owners sharing a box spanner with a 6' lever for keel bolt tightening, along with plentiful grp reinforcing, and still find a small gap appear above the keels when the boat is craned...

Nothing in this life comes free, and the gods of sailing are keen on the salt of human endeavour; twin keelers demand a lot for the sake of being able to be plonked on shore for the winter, though of course there are plenty of owners who simply don't catch on to this, leaving the snags to bite the next poor sap who buys the boat !
 
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Seajet said:
I think the golden phrase missing here is 'wetted area drag' ( nothing to do with being a boat ! ).

Twin keelers - NB 'bilge keelers' technically means boats with a central ballast keel and drying out plates on the bilge sides - have the snag that if going aground they usually stay parked there for the tide, as there's no quick way to reduce draught, heeling only serves to increase it.

Shallow draught is not such a blessing; if sailing coastal or offshore, remember surface drift; after a strong wind has been blowing for a day or two, the whole upper surface layer of the sea, down to about 1 metre, is set flowing in that direction; this is one reason why deep fin keel boats consistently out-perform shallow fins, let alone twin keelers.

Twin keelers going to windward in a sea often suffer heavy 'thumping' on the windward keel as it is lifted near surface level, this can be more than annoying, preventing off-watch crew from sleeping.

The idea of 'ditch crawling' using shallow draught is a bit of a myth, there's not much difference between 3 or 4,5 feet depth when risking going aground, especially if there are even slight waves.

Twin keelers also suffer huge splaying loads when left drying out then refloating on mud, use your imagination as to the awful forces at work !

I've known twin keeler owners sharing a box spanner with a 6' lever for keel bolt tightening, along with plentiful grp reinforcing, and still find a small gap appear above the keels when the boat is craned...

Nothing in this life comes free, and the gods of sailing are keen on the salt of human endeavour; twin keelers demand a lot for the sake of being able to be plonked on shore for the winter, though of course there are plenty of owners who simply don't catch on to this, leaving the snags to bite the next poor sap who buys the boat !
Click to expand...

"Struth " Andy your up early :D
Thanks for the reply, some good valid points there , must confess I didn't think of surface drift.:o
 
They don't sail as good, more leeway, slower, etc, but hey, who cares; They sail almost as fast as fin keelers, they make almost as much leeway, and they are almost as fast.

The fact that bilge keelers can dry out almost anywhere, hence more freedom to visit places, and cost much less for mooring, outweighs disadvantages; it is matter of opinion and preference to suite situations.

Its hard to find bilge keel yachts now-days, this is why they keep their value.
 
they make almost as much leeway, and they are almost as fast.

That's news to a lot of people.

Macwester owners especially need all the help to windward they can get, we noticed in early days sailing our Anderson 22 that they ( Macwesters ) kept suspicously close to the wind, making a good CMG even with the jib luffing; then we found they had quiet engines, only given away by the outlet...

D, a common interest here ! :)

Lift keels are more hassle to design, but one is rewarded for the effort - and cost...
 
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Madhatter said:
this is a serious question ?
I have read all sorts of comments about them and their qualities ( or lack of ), also that there seems to be two main types : bilge plates and encapsulated .
Opinions seem to be a loss of speed between fin/drop keel and BKs
What do the panel think ?
Click to expand...

Not having sailed them all, I cant comment on which is the best. However I used to race a Moody 336 bilge, which must have been one of the last 34 ft bilges built here in the UK, and it really did sail well. The fin keel version rates better than the Sigma 33 so its a decent cruiser racer hull anyway. Certainly had no problem winning the series against Hunters and other Brit boats.

The fleet we sailed alongside included fins like the J80 and the Impala. Compared to them we were as fast or faster through the water but tracked maybe 5 to 10 degrees ( very hard to judge) further off the wind - combination of leeway and pointing ability.

Bilge keelers are meant for taking to the ground so I wouldnt go near one with encapsulated keels. In any case, those are old designs and compared with what I'm talking about they sail like shopping trolleys. Like catamarans, bilge keelers really did develop for the better as time went on so the oldies are mostly poor sailers.

P.S. Having changed from bilge to fin for racing reasons, I'm thinking of changing back. Problem is when cruising, lots of places are not open to fin keelers because you cant dry unless there is a wall handy and even that isnt exactly a fun exercise. Moorings are more available for bilges and cheaper too. Sure they dont point as well but know what - windward cruising more often requires the engine than the sails because you have distance to make, the wind is invariably directly from your destination and short of a full on race boat tacking always has a lower vmg than motoring direct into it. Which is of course why you hear so many engine problems on this sailing forum.
 
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You mention they are less vulnerable to grounding - yes they may have a shallower draft than a fin but if you do hit the "putty" they can dig both keels in and are more difficult to "get off" again as the comparible fin or lifting keels
 
E39mad said:
You mention they are less vulnerable to grounding - yes they may have a shallower draft than a fin but if you do hit the "putty" they can dig both keels in and are more difficult to "get off" again as the comparible fin or lifting keels
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++

Maybe. But the consequences if you dont get off are almost always less serious.
 
Madhatter said:
Thank you all for your contributions to this thread and apologies for bringing it up again.
It just seems to me to be the logical keel configuration for cruising boats :-
Dries out upright.
Shallow draught.
No cradle needed.
No intrusion into cabin.
Less vulnerable to grounding.
Etc.
And yet not the most popular set up (these days ) ,mind you I may be wrong there :D
Click to expand...
Exactly the selling points when they were popular - before the days of marinas when shallow and drying moorings were the norm. However, the world moves on and the centre of boatbuilding and using acitivity has moved elsewhere to places where these conditions are not the norm - therefore little demand for these qualities. Even in UK marinas dominate for all but the smallest cruisers so fin keels can be enjoyed without the drawbacks of previous times.

For the still large number of folks who prefer or can only afford shallow moorings there is at least a big stock of bilge/twin keel boats available to meet their needs.
 
I used to have a twin keel, I now have a fin.

I agree totally with the comments that while you can generally get away if you touch by heeling the boat of spinning away, you can't with a twin. You are much more likely to get stuck.

As to drying out, that depends where you sail. I ran my twin aground once and one keel sank into the east coast mud while the other, for no obvious reason, did not, so we still ended up at an angle, and the strain it caused to the keel lead to a leak and an expensive repair bill.

The advantage of a twin is they need, generally, less water, and you do not need a cradle
 
A lot depends on where you sail. I'm based in Lancashire so my normal cruising ground encompasses Morecambe Bay, the Irish Sea, Solway Firth & North channel. Tidal range is over 10 metres on Springs and the vast majority of harbours and anchorages dry out. In this environment a boat that cannot take the ground limits one's cruising options so severely as to become almost a liability.

In the Solent it may be different but, in defence of twin-keelers, I would just mention that the Round the Island Race has seen some notable successes by British Hunters, a Horizon 21 and 32 having been class winners in the past - both twin-keelers designed by David Thomas. That other Round The Island Race, the one round the Isle of Man, frequently features twin-keelers among the winners.
 
Tranona said:
Exactly the selling points when they were popular - before the days of marinas when shallow and drying moorings were the norm. However, the world moves on and the centre of boatbuilding and using acitivity has moved elsewhere to places where these conditions are not the norm - therefore little demand for these qualities. Even in UK marinas dominate for all but the smallest cruisers so fin keels can be enjoyed without the drawbacks of previous times.

.
Click to expand...

I think your views are coloured by where you sail. In the south west, the bristiol channel and on the east coast, drying harbours and estuaries are still the most common berths / stopovers. I was sat in the cabin of my boat in Helford last week looking at places to visit between the Lizard and Rame head and there were loads of little interesting places I could not visit like Polperro for example. Lots of places beginning "Porth".

And there arent lots of bilges available except lots of old knackered Brit boats. There's just a few like Legend ( would you buy one?) and that froggie wooden thing RM.

My guess is that the issue is going to get more important because our planning laws usually prevent the building of new marinas. Already we are seeing the bilge version of a boat selling for more than the fin.
 
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