What is a Classic Boat

[Roach1948]

old character boats

It amuses why some people find it important to know whether their boat is a classic or not? Surely one purchases a boat based on their requirements, whatever they are: aesthetics, practicality, space; rather than what others my might perceive it to be (and how that perception makes you feel)?

This quest to find whether one’s boat fits within a strict categorized definition strikes me as very British. I don’t see the French, Italians or Americans being too obsessed about this question; they all have a very healthy following of old character boats, but less of an obsession of categorising them.

 

[peter radclyffe]

i guess you never heard the word herreshoff

 

[srm]

Or that so frequently and sadly mis-used name "Colin Archer"

 

[JasonClark]

I have westerly 22 circa 1968, she is a grp hulled boat with hardwood windows brass portholes aft in the heads and off to the front vee berth, i am currently giving her a new lees of life. in my mind she is very much a classic. she even has the original ratsey sails which are in pretty good condition. just need a good scrub up.

 

[JasonClark]

It amuses why some people find it important to know whether their boat is a classic or not? Surely one purchases a boat based on their requirements, whatever they are: aesthetics, practicality, space; rather than what others my might perceive it to be (and how that perception makes you feel)?

This quest to find whether one’s boat fits within a strict categorized definition strikes me as very British. I don’t see the French, Italians or Americans being too obsessed about this question; they all have a very healthy following of old character boats, but less of an obsession of categorising them.

Very true the above. i dont care how old my boat is ! i looked at loads of boats before i bought the one i wanted. i considered head room i;m fairly tall at 6 ft , i wanted something stable, i wanted something i could easily fit two adults and two kids aboard, i wanted something i could afford the upkkep of etc... and i wanted something i could afford to buy in the first place, so that meant buying something old and neglected and restoring, and as it happens i am pretty handy being a mech engineer, so... on we go

 

[Rum_Pirate]

So is this a classic?

“Kate” is a First Rule (1907) International Twelve Metre.

LOA 23.75 metres (tip of bowsprit to boom end).
LOD 18.40 metres.
LWL 12.00 metres.
Beam 3.45 metres.
Draft 2.30 metres.
Displacement 20 tonnes.
Sail area 250 square metres

---- “Kate” was designed by Alfred Mylne in 1908 and built by Philip Walwyn and his small team of woodworkers in St. Kitts. Launch date was December 2006.
Copies of Mylne’s drawings and calculations were used. Displacement is as designed, as is ballast ratio and rig. Construction, engineered by Ian Nicolson with plan approval from the Twelve Metre Class is wood, epoxy, bronze fastened throughout and glass sheathed using two layers of 300gsm biaxial. Walwyn has used this method over the past 30 years to build a number of boats for himself. Epoxy, additives and glass cloth are from SP Systems in the Isle of Wight. Coatings are by Awlgrip.

Frames are laminated mahogany as is the centerline structure. Planking, screwed and glued to the frames is 35 mm Oregon pine, a 2mm veneer of Okoume covers the interior planking. Deck beams are laminated Oregon pine. Decks are two layers of 10mm Bruynzeel ply with a laid deck of Oregon pine of 4mm glued over. The spars are Sitka spruce, made hollow. Sails are cream Dacron by Gowen of West Mersea. The keel of 11.5 tonnes is lead with 18 bronze keel bolts. Rigging is by Spencer of Cowes using Sta-Lok terminals and rigging screws. Ten bronze, Meissner, self tailing winches handle halyards, runners and sheets. Bronze and steel hardware is by Classic Marine in Woodbridge.

With experience gained building half a dozen boats up to 23 metres on deck engineered in wood/epoxy, “Kate’s” interior and furniture is designed to be both functional and add strength and it makes for a particularly stiff structure.

There is no engine, no tanks and apart from a masthead tricolour, no electrics. Handheld GPS and VHF are on board. The boat is a symphony in simplicity.

Accommodation is traditional with two quarter berths aft, chart table on starboard, galley top on port, settee berths and pilot berths port and starboard in the saloon, marine head on starboard and vanity opposite on port by the mast with a double cabin forward. The anchor locker and stowage is forward of a watertight bulkhead. A small lazarette is between two watertight bulkheads aft of the tiller.



After all she did make the front cover

 

[cliffordpope]

I refer the honourable member to my previous answer:

"Basically there are "Ordinary Boats", "Nice Old Boats" and "Mega cost Classics".

Look at any boat you see and it will always fit into one of the three categories, without the need for precise definition."

Clearly a Category 3, I think.

 

[laurance]

I would question Kate's validity as a true classic - though I am not saying you are making that claim - but not her right to be regarded as special. Her example, in my mind, complicates the debate rather than settles it: an 'original' design build with modern techniques, where does that fit in?
On the one hand you chose an outmoded design, one with virtues embodied by her contemporaries of that era but built with solutions and technologies of the present day. It is obvious what you may have gained by that perfectly reasonably approach but still there is a certain loss of the full ascetic effect that otherwise would have been if you had gone for traditional construction. I make this criticism as part of this discussion not to cause offence, I still think she is superb.
Classic Boat's editorship clearly must embrace, for commercial reasons at least, the wider definition of the magazine's title, but there has to be a cut off point, a framework within which to keep people focussed on the magazines aims. Both Kate and say, a Nic 32, champion the same two ideas, namely design elements from a previous era married with technology. But whereas though the Nic has filtered something from past designs, she is looking to the future, she is modern. Kate on the other hand is a huge statement of joy for the past and despite her construction she invites us to enjoy her as such. I think Classic Boat thinks the same way and why we will not see even classic Bavs on the cover anytime soon.

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

re magazine agenda

But is Classic boats agenda a wide enough one to sustain a wide enough audience going forward.

I was seeking to broaden the definition of a clasic boat to influence the magazine to include articles on a wider range of subjects and boats including GRP ones and in my view make it more varied and interesting.

I like wooden boats, i chased round the Mylnes and the Fifes over the last few seasons when they come to the Clyde. I also think the gorgeous Nicolson 35 on the mooring next to me is worthy of mention and is closer to the world the majority of us are familiar with.

Is the readership happy with the definition classic boat seems to have of "what is a classic boat?"

Euan

 

[Ludd]

So is this a classic?

“Kate” is a First Rule (1907) International Twelve Metre.

LOA 23.75 metres (tip of bowsprit to boom end).
LOD 18.40 metres.
LWL 12.00 metres.
Beam 3.45 metres.
Draft 2.30 metres.
Displacement 20 tonnes.
Sail area 250 square metres

---- “Kate” was designed by Alfred Mylne in 1908 and built by Philip Walwyn and his small team of woodworkers in St. Kitts. Launch date was December 2006.
Copies of Mylne’s drawings and calculations were used. Displacement is as designed, as is ballast ratio and rig. Construction, engineered by Ian Nicolson with plan approval from the Twelve Metre Class is wood, epoxy, bronze fastened throughout and glass sheathed using two layers of 300gsm biaxial. Walwyn has used this method over the past 30 years to build a number of boats for himself. Epoxy, additives and glass cloth are from SP Systems in the Isle of Wight. Coatings are by Awlgrip.

Frames are laminated mahogany as is the centerline structure. Planking, screwed and glued to the frames is 35 mm Oregon pine, a 2mm veneer of Okoume covers the interior planking. Deck beams are laminated Oregon pine. Decks are two layers of 10mm Bruynzeel ply with a laid deck of Oregon pine of 4mm glued over. The spars are Sitka spruce, made hollow. Sails are cream Dacron by Gowen of West Mersea. The keel of 11.5 tonnes is lead with 18 bronze keel bolts. Rigging is by Spencer of Cowes using Sta-Lok terminals and rigging screws. Ten bronze, Meissner, self tailing winches handle halyards, runners and sheets. Bronze and steel hardware is by Classic Marine in Woodbridge.

With experience gained building half a dozen boats up to 23 metres on deck engineered in wood/epoxy, “Kate’s” interior and furniture is designed to be both functional and add strength and it makes for a particularly stiff structure.

There is no engine, no tanks and apart from a masthead tricolour, no electrics. Handheld GPS and VHF are on board. The boat is a symphony in simplicity.

Accommodation is traditional with two quarter berths aft, chart table on starboard, galley top on port, settee berths and pilot berths port and starboard in the saloon, marine head on starboard and vanity opposite on port by the mast with a double cabin forward. The anchor locker and stowage is forward of a watertight bulkhead. A small lazarette is between two watertight bulkheads aft of the tiller.



After all she did make the front cover

So why didn't you pop over to the Clyde in July to join the other Mylnes??

 

[Rum_Pirate]

It was considered, but the main consideration nixed it - TIME - for crew to take off work to sail her over take part and sail back.

Sailing back would have been in the hurricane season.

It would have been great.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

is mine a classic??

Macwester 30 sloop GRP 39 years old; only 12 were build and going strong.

 

[srm]

I have owned a 'classic boat' or at least they let me attend a 'classic boat rally' even though she was built in steel.

My current boat is based on a standard GRP hull and deck mouldings but designed quite a while ago by Angus Primrose, and strangely enough the underwater lines and dimensions are very close to my old Mcgruer 8CR 'Hermes'. Above the waterline there is a 'classic' ocean cruising rig complete with platform bowsprit and twin running poles as well as a fair bit of stained wood trim. People stop, look and most comments are favourable.

Its OK I am not claiming 'classic' or any other title - I liked her, I bought her, and I sail her. Even when I couldn't start the engine I sailed out against the wind and back in to the marina - that was the first time I had ever sailed her to windward but trusted that she would do it based on the lines. Call her what you like, she suits me both for looks and performance - nothing else really matters.

But while writing I have just realised that any sailing yacht with half a claim to being a 'classic' must be able to do just that - be sail without an engine in close quarters as well as open water.

 

[peter radclyffe]

the owner wants to see you tack eleonora into a marina, without an engine

 

[TamarMike]

Macwester 30 sloop GRP 39 years old; only 12 were build and going strong.

I like the look of those, how about posting a better picture than your avatar on Snook's "Readers Boats"? Although a nice looking interesting older boat I supppose not exactly a classic.

 

[Jeremy_W]

Really???

...Sigma 33's, Twisters, and dare I say it Bavaria 350's are all classics in my book, as well as the HR's from the late 80's of course.

I love Sigma 33's. I've sailed in two National Championships in them, but I've never regarded them as "Classic Yachts". If that is a classic, then how do you distinguish a 41-foot Robert Clark yawl or a gaff-rigged Vertue from them? I would suggest that rig and designer are good starting points, with the byeline "modern" if the yacht was, like "Patience" the Vertue (built 1990s I think) built recently.

 

[Litotes]

This quest to find whether one’s boat fits within a strict categorized definition strikes me as very British. I don’t see the French, Italians or Americans being too obsessed about this question; they all have a very healthy following of old character boats, but less of an obsession of categorising them.

I don't think anyone "obsesses" over whether their boat is a "classic" or not. Certainly, I have never heard anyone talk about it during my 50 years or so on the water.

Topics on internet forums, like articles in newspapers, may raise "talking points" but they are a poor guide to reality.

 

[srm]

the owner wants to see you tack eleonora into a marina, without an engine

If you are refering to the Westward replica how do you think she was handled in 1910? She would certainly have been worked in close quarters situations under sail as she had no engine - no marinas then so would be using moorings. Probably a steam tug available for assistance given the size of the vessel.

I did say 'close quarters' which is a relative term, the marina was your idea. However, she would be turned away from the marinas I regularly use as she is far too long and heavy for the pontoons, but would be aground before she got there anyway.

 

[Ludd]

old sheds

Lets start the debate... because CB Magazine seems very driven by wooden boats, epoxy is a sin etc...

I have a HR Rasmus - A new HR 36 came alongside me a few weeks back and wanted to come aboard to view my "classic HR".

I just thought I had a nice old boat in fairly good nick with some nice teak and mahogany in the right places. Is it a Classic now?

So what is a classic boat? Does it have to be made of wood in the classic style? or can GRP boats now be considered as classics. CR Holman designed some lovely boats in GRP as did others.

Judgeing by the usual agenda of BC magazine, there is a view that they should be Gaffers or Fife's or GL Watson's or have some pedigree / history. Should there be acknowledgement of "practical classics", the boats that most of us own and work on to keep going and should we be proud of our old GRP boats not ashamed to discuss them in wooden boat company.

I do like a well kept wooden boat boat couldn't live with one. Should CB be a bit more open minded about older boats and open their brief to include a wider range of classic boats.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this one?

Sailed my old shed past your old shed yesterday----they were both looking EXTREMELY classic!

 

[Woodlouse]

The only issue I have with Kate is the colour. She'd be much more of a classic if she was white. Or anything, just not that bile yellow.


As for being able to sail a classic in close quarters, it's not easy. Especially earlier designs with a full forefoot. Sailing almost any classic into a marina is almost an impossibility unless your berth is right on the outskirts.