what gearbox is this - what oil does it need???

contessaman

contessaman

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So, just de-winterised my engine. changed fuel and oil filters. Thought I check my gearbox oil :eek: its low; almost off the bottom of the dipstick. Im not sure what oil to top it up with?

Im not even sure of what gearbox it is but a quick google image search on perkins 4108 gearbox came up with this which is identical:

http://en.cosasdebarcos.com/accesorio_nautico_49230720112899102101565551495445.html

so I guess that means its a hurth? but can somebody out there help me with what model it is and more importantly what oil I need to put in it.

thanks in advance
 
contessaman said:
So, just de-winterised my engine. changed fuel and oil filters. Thought I check my gearbox oil :eek: its low; almost off the bottom of the dipstick. Im not sure what oil to top it up with?

Im not even sure of what gearbox it is but a quick google image search on perkins 4108 gearbox came up with this which is identical:

http://en.cosasdebarcos.com/accesorio_nautico_49230720112899102101565551495445.html

so I guess that means its a hurth? but can somebody out there help me with what model it is and more importantly what oil I need to put in it.

thanks in advance
Click to expand...

Looks like my my old Hurth HBW 100 2R, this was my replacement ZF10M box which is almost identical. (slight differance in gear ratio)

I use ATF Transmax Dex III oil in it from Halfords, BUT, do not overfill it !!

Mike

View attachment 29616
 
If it's almost off the bottom of the dipstick it's about right. The ring on the dipstick is the correct level mark with the dipstick NOT screwed in just resting on the threads.
The recommended oil used to be ATF to Dexron II or III spec. Those are no longer official GM specifications having been replaced by Dexron VI which is apparently not suitable. However if it is called ATF and isn't specifically marked Dex VI in practise it will be Dex III and OK to use.
However current recommendation from
Hurth is 15/40 engine oil.
Same goes for Volvo using same gearbox.

It is supposed to be sucked out and refilled with fresh every 200 hours or every year. I think it takes about 375ml haven't got the book with me.
 
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Troubadour said:
If it's almost off the bottom of the dipstick it's about right. The ring on the dipstick is the correct level mark with the dipstick NOT screwed in just resting on the threads.
The recommended oil used to be ATF to Dexron II or III spec. Those are no longer official GM specifications having been replaced by Dexron VI which is apparently not suitable. However if it is called ATF and isn't specifically marked Dex VI in practise it will be Dex III and OK to use.
However current recommendation from
Hurth is 15/40 engine oil.
Same goes for Volvo using same gearbox.

It is supposed to be sucked out and refilled with fresh every 200 hours or every year. I think it takes about 375ml haven't got the book with me.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Im only on my second season with this boat so hadn't looked at it until now.

Its definately a bit on the low side as I was screwing the dipstick all the way in and I could only just see a film of oil on the very bottom. It doesnt help that its very clear its hard to see.

So if its meant originally to have Auto trans fluid in it, and now they are saying engine oil what do I go for? Id better drain and refill in any case since I dont know which of the above is in it and I presume they wont mix too well?

I have never drained a gearbox before (my last boat had a watermota J type that leaked so much it was changed by default with all my topping up!), any particular technique? presumably run the thing in gear a while to warm it up then find a low down drain bolt to remove, then refill. is that it? Or do I need a vacuum pump to suck it all out?

ta
 
Odd I replied but it deems to have got lost. Here's a slightly different reply!
If you Google zf10m operation manual you will find one easily e.g. there's one on bukh-bremen.de
There is a drain plug if you have room for access, there's a drawing of it, but I use a pump. Under £20 eBay. Need it for engine too.
I sucked out the atf, filled with 15_40, ran a bit, sucked out and refilled. Probably Ott but for 350ml of oil worth it.
ATF is usually red but not always so can't be sure what you have in!
 
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Hurth has been taken over by ZF. The ZF manual states only ATF is to be used. If like me you have a Hurth 100/ZF 10m on the back of a Perkins 4108 then you are operating right at the limit of its input rating. Overheating is a problem as there is so little fluid in it. ATF is better for cooling. I have just replaced a slipping Hurth with a new ZF 10m. I did a lot of research on how to look after these gearboxes. You might find the following links helpful.

www.foleyengines.com/resources/tech-tips/hurth-marine-transmissions-ins-and-outs-basic-service

www.foleyengines.com/resources/tech-tips/zfhurth-marine-transmissions-six-step-program

I was concerned about the temperature in the gearbox so fitted a cooler made from a copper u bend and a piece of copper plate cost around £20 (thanks to captainboo for his soldering skills) . The ZF cooler is around £170. It has proved to be very effective.

It is very difficult to get a suction tube to the bottom of the gearbox where all the debris is. Far better to use the sump plug.
 
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The latest edition of the ZF manual, which is on line somewhere but I can't find it at the moments, says 15-40, as do Volvo for their badged ZF gearbox.
I've no doubt ATF to Dex III spec is still fine too but I understand you should not use Dex VI which is the only official GM spec now. I think the change is just because of that.
 
Troubadour said:
Odd I replied but it deems to have got lost. Here's a slightly different reply!
If you Google zf10m operation manual you will find one easily e.g. there's one on bukh-bremen.de
There is a drain plug if you have room for access, there's a drawing of it, but I use a pump. Under £20 eBay. Need it for engine too.
I sucked out the atf, filled with 15_40, ran a bit, sucked out and refilled. Probably Ott but for 350ml of oil worth it.
ATF is usually red but not always so can't be sure what you have in!
Click to expand...

Hmm... thanks for that have downloaded a manual. but im still not sure of what to do! sure I can drain/flush /refill it. but with what? the manual does indeed say type A tranny fluid. but what if mine (circa 1979 vintage) is one that has oil seals designed only for engine oil? is this the conclusion you came to, so to be safe you flushed and refilled with engine oil?

I have checked the engine information supplied by beneteau from when the boat was new but they dont mention the gearbox at all. yikes. thats probably why the level is so low - nobody has ever checked it! poor thing. no oil, 34 years and 3600 hours and its still going strong....
 
Troubadour said:
The latest edition of the ZF manual, which is on line somewhere but I can't find it at the moments, says 15-40, as do Volvo for their badged ZF gearbox.
I've no doubt ATF to Dex III spec is still fine too but I understand you should not use Dex VI which is the only official GM spec now. I think the change is just because of that.
Click to expand...

Have you a link to the 15-40 recommendation?
 
contessaman said:
Hmm... thanks for that have downloaded a manual. but im still not sure of what to do! sure I can drain/flush /refill it. but with what? the manual does indeed say type A tranny fluid. but what if mine (circa 1979 vintage) is one that has oil seals designed only for engine oil? is this the conclusion you came to, so to be safe you flushed and refilled with engine oil?

I have checked the engine information supplied by beneteau from when the boat was new but they dont mention the gearbox at all. yikes. thats probably why the level is so low - nobody has ever checked it! poor thing. no oil, 34 years and 3600 hours and its still going strong....
Click to expand...

I think it is only the later ones that may be used with engine oil. Your old one should be filled with ATF and note Troubador's post about the oil level being close to the dipstick end if you dip it without screwing it down. (The one I recently sold on ebay was from 2004 and had a label on it stating ATF)
 
Slipstream 34 said:
Have you a link to the 15-40 recommendation?
Click to expand...

No, as I said I can't find it right now, but I promise you I have seen online a version of the op manual that said 15-40. I think it was dated late 2011, maybe late 2010. I actually posted a link to it in a previous topica bout this but can't find that using the forum search!!
However in looking for it again, I have found this
https://serviceline.zf.com/interoelepdf/TE-ML 04_en0701.pdf
which is dated 1.2013 and again specifies ATF! So either they have changed back or are inconsistent in documentation. When you look at the list of specific approved fluids many of them refer to Dex II or III spec, not Dex VI.

Volvo Penta use the same box (with different gear ratios) as their model MS10L. My VP manual for it on an MD2020 engine dated 2002 says you can use CD 15/40 or Dex II or III.
Later VP manuals for this box on the D1 series engines only mention 15/40. I doubt VP would change without ZF's authority.

As I said I'm sure either is OK. I have picked up the impression that Dex VI is too slippery for the clutch plates but I can't give you an authoritative reference for that.
 
Contessaman,

Firstly, use only ATF ( Dex III ) on old Hurth gearboxes and don't overfill. The change to engine oil is for very recent ZF gearboxes.

Secondly, you say "So, just de-winterised my engine. changed fuel and oil filters." Why have you changed the oil filter now (no mention of the oil)? The engine oil and filter should be changed when winterising the engine before the winter. If that is what you did then no need to change the oil filter again. The engine should be left all winter with fresh oil in it not the old which will contain combustion products harmful to the engine.
 
theoldsalt said:
Contessaman,

Firstly, use only ATF ( Dex III ) on old Hurth gearboxes and don't overfill. The change to engine oil is for very recent ZF gearboxes.

Secondly, you say "So, just de-winterised my engine. changed fuel and oil filters." Why have you changed the oil filter now (no mention of the oil)? The engine oil and filter should be changed when winterising the engine before the winter. If that is what you did then no need to change the oil filter again. The engine should be left all winter with fresh oil in it not the old which will contain combustion products harmful to the engine.
Click to expand...

I did my oil and oil filter now. I thought there were two camps on when to do it:

At the end of the season so the engine is sat in fresh oil all winter i.e. the corrosive elements the old oil has picked up are not damaging the engine all winter.

vs.

At the start of the season so the engine has new oil when it will be running and needing the lubrication. Otherwise the 'new' oil put in in the autumn will have deteriorated by sitting there all winter possibly absorbing moisture.

At any rate in my instance I had only done 25 hours or so last year and being overseas with work at the end of last year precluded me from doing it then. So for the sake of £20 of oil and filter I thought I do it now.

back to the gearbox. So, I will buy some type III fluid. drain it, fill it, run it a bit then drain and fill again to effect a 'flush' then. Interesting the bits I read about that gearbox bear near its limit with a 4108. that said, if the engine is rated at 50bhp at 4000 rpm then I never get anywhere near it as 1400 rpm is hull speed and even into a large sea I wouldnt use more than say 2500rpm (should be using the sails then anyway).

mine is definately the original engine / gearbox from 1979 so from what I have now read and you guys have kindly informed me that should rule out engine oil!
 
theoldsalt said:
The change to engine oil is for very recent ZF gearboxes.
Click to expand...

If you have evidence for that I would be interested. My understanding is that it applies to all of them and is just because of the potential Dex VI problem, if that's wrong I'd like to know.
Volvo have certainly made the change restrospective, particularly for some saildrives there has been a bulletin to change over.
 
Troubadour,

Perhaps I should have added "maybe" & "IMHO".

There may not be any evidence preventing people changing from ATF to engine oil in older gearboxes but as long as Dex III remains available I see no reason to switch and from an engineering viewpoint I would prefer to stay with ATF which has served me well for years. Removing ALL ATF before "filling" the gearbox with engine oil is very difficult (especially seals) and not wishing to risk the possible ill affects of mixing the oils this adds to my reasoning to stay with ATF.

I agree that specifying engine oil removes the possibility of Dex VI being inappropriately used in place of Dex III, and I think that is why some manufacturers have made the change to engine oil retrospective.

There has been much discussion on various forums on this topic and many people have decided to stay with ATF. However since Volvo changed their recommendation to engine oil I believe many have now changed to engine oil in Volvo drives. Maybe there is no right or wrong on this subject.
 
theoldsalt said:
Troubadour,

Perhaps I should have added "maybe" & "IMHO".

There may not be any evidence preventing people changing from ATF to engine oil in older gearboxes but as long as Dex III remains available I see no reason to switch and from an engineering viewpoint I would prefer to stay with ATF which has served me well for years. Removing ALL ATF before "filling" the gearbox with engine oil is very difficult (especially seals) and not wishing to risk the possible ill affects of mixing the oils this adds to my reasoning to stay with ATF.

I agree that specifying engine oil removes the possibility of Dex VI being inappropriately used in place of Dex III, and I think that is why some manufacturers have made the change to engine oil retrospective.

There has been much discussion on various forums on this topic and many people have decided to stay with ATF. However since Volvo changed their recommendation to engine oil I believe many have now changed to engine oil in Volvo drives. Maybe there is no right or wrong on this subject.
Click to expand...

What a shame, I really hoped you had something definitive, it's too messy.
A friend of mine who is retired from the lubricants industry also thinks either should be OK and also that there shouldn't be a compatibility problem - but has changed it in his saildrive just in case!
Volvo say traces don't matter but don't deliberately mix them.
 
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