What does a VATIVA certificate look like?

[Rubylee]

We are negotiating for a Grand Banks in Italy with German registration. They have sent us a bunch of paperwork in Italian bill of sale on yacht and tonnage, and including a "Nella Osta" from the former Italian owner, but nowhere do we see a paper marked VAT/IVA paid. What do we need to look for to protect ourselves? There is no original bill of sale on the vessel and it is from 1990.

 

[jfm]

Suggest you read all the recent past threads on this. Only UK folks (aided and abetted by UK brokers) worry about this, and they typically want to see the first purchase invoice from dealer to first owner. You typically wont find anything with a boat that has nothing UK in its history so you just have to get over it I'm afraid. But re-read old threads for all the background. For sure, the one collection of folks who don't give any sort of damn about all this is the tax authorities of all the EU countries. Go figure...

This thread will become a carbon copy of 100x previous threads if we don't stop all this!

 

[Rubylee]

I have looked at older threads which go around in circles!
And have a bunch of Italian documents in my hand.
Nowhere do I see an indication of what the thing is supposed to look like.I don't think this is a very kind response to a new user!

 

[Rubylee]

Also see that Croatia and Italy can be problematic which is where we intend to ceuise!

 

[Whitelighter]

There is no such thing as a VAT/IVA certificate - it just doesn't exist.
When you bought your car, you paid VAT. Did you get/expect a certificate?

In the UK (because for some reason we are VAT obsessed) people keep the original invoice from the dealer. In reality though all this proves is VAT was charged. It doesn't prove the owner paid it to the dealer, the dealer paid it to HMRC or that no one along the line subsequently reclaimed it.

In Italy many boats are bought on leasing schemes that when ended will pay a small amount of VAT - if you have leading termination/satisfaction documents among the stash you hold this is bullet proof VAT paid. Is the boat owned by a private individual or a company? If a non-vat registers individual then their tax liability will not transfer to you as the transaction is not one that attracts value added tax.

If in doubt, employ the services of a conveyancer (as you would with a house purchase) - I recommend Ward & McKenzie for this as j have used them twice for foreign purchases.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Null Osta granted it was registered on a person and says no debt is owned to state has as much value (if not more) to a Vat invoice.

 

[Whitelighter]

Null Osta granted it was registered on a person and says no debt is owned to state has as much value (if not more) to a Vat invoice.

Absolutely. That is the state saying 'we have no interest in this vessel'.
Ask a Brit though and (mostly) he'll want the original invoice for the ark which proves nothing but is worth everything.

It's not all the buyers fault, the BMF continue to pedal the vat myth and they are support by the like of MB&Y and even the banks.

 

[Rubylee]

Thanks for that info.
We read today on a UK "lawyers website that boats proven to be in EU waters before '92 are not liable for VAT, but is this true for Italian or Croatian waters?
The Grand Banks is held by an individual, not company, and it is a private sale.
There is a Nulla Osta from the owner before the one we are buying from....
The real question is if Vat/IVA is expected on a vessel from 1990, 26 years ago?

 

[benjenbav]

Absolutely. That is the state saying 'we have no interest in this vessel'.
Ask a Brit though and (mostly) he'll want the original invoice for the ark which proves nothing but is worth everything.

It's not all the buyers fault, the BMF continue to pedal the vat myth and they are support by the like of MB&Y and even the banks.

Life imitates art: in Paul Weller's great, "underground" subversion: "The public wants what the public gets"

 

[Tranona]

It's not all the buyers fault, the BMF continue to pedal the vat myth and they are support by the like of MB&Y and even the banks.

However, that comes originally from HMRC and reflects the fact that unlike other EU states we do not have any state register of boats, nor any compulsory means of recording liabilities against them. Therefore the only document that records VAT against a specific boat is the original invoice to the first private buyer. So hardly surprising that in the absence of anything else (in order to comply with EU requirements for the free movement of boats) it assumes some importance in the eyes of HMRC, other states and therefore owners and buyers. Does not matter that it is "poor" evidence of actual payment - it is the only evidence that the boat was the subject of a chargeable event. Much as we dislike it we are stuck with it.

 

[jfm]

I have looked at older threads which go around in circles!

As will this one, because the topic contains such irrationalities (as well explained above) that it always leads to that outcome.

Nowhere do I see an indication of what the thing is supposed to look like.

Sorry for not making that clear. It doesn't exist, so it doesn't look like anything.

 

[MapisM]

And have a bunch of Italian documents in my hand.
Nowhere do I see an indication of what the thing is supposed to look like.
I don't think this is a very kind response to a new user!

Welcome to the madhouse.

Since I do speak a decent Italian, I might offer to help with IT docs, if that sounds kinder to a new user...
But why are you bothering with them, to start with? If the boat is registered in D, the "bunch of IT documents" are now history.

If there's anything that might suggest whether your purchase is VAT-table or not, that's the nature of the transaction behind the last transfer of ownership, which (I suppose) was the reason for the change of registration.

 

[Whitelighter]

Thanks for that info.
We read today on a UK "lawyers website that boats proven to be in EU waters before '92 are not liable for VAT, but is this true for Italian or Croatian waters?
The Grand Banks is held by an individual, not company, and it is a private sale.
There is a Nulla Osta from the owner before the one we are buying from....
The real question is if Vat/IVA is expected on a vessel from 1990, 26 years ago?

Honestly, no one is going to even think about asking for proof of vat on a boat of that age (except another British buyer).

 

[Rubylee]

The next question is: Does a vessel from 1990 in EU waters qualify VAT exempt, or is it only a vessel from before 1985 in EU water that is exempt?

 

[Whitelighter]

Croatia wasn't in the EU until the year before last anyway.
Is the bust going to be British flagged?

 

[Rubylee]

The are saying the VAT was not paid or necessary, nor for the owner before them as it was paid by the original owner in 1990,ha!
But go prove that to to some officious, uniform wearing, low level official bent on revenue. Boat will fly red ensign.

 

[Whitelighter]

The are saying the VAT was not paid or necessary, nor for the owner before them as it was paid by the original owner in 1990,ha!
But go prove that to to some officious, uniform wearing, low level official bent on revenue. Boat will fly red ensign.

I have had boats in Greece, Spain, Sweden, Channel Islands, France and the U.K.
I have NEVER been asked for proof of VAT paid, indeed two of my boats were bought (legally) without paying VAT and I merrily went to France, Belgium, Germany and Sweden with no issues. and that was on a brand new boat that so wine could conceivably consider VAT.

On a 1990 bust no-one is going to care, especially if it's flying the uk flag and has the correct registration papers.

 

[nigelmercier]

Just forge one, you won't need it anyway.

 

[jfm]

But go prove that to to some officious, uniform wearing, low level official bent on revenue.

If you are going to worry about this you really shouldn't buy a boat. There is no piece of paper that you can have in your possession that proves VAT is not due on the boat. Any piece of paper has a certain date on it, and the very next day VAT can become due again. "VAT paid" status isn't for ever; it can come and go.
As said above, no-one is going to question you hard about this anyway.
Nicely going round in circles here, again