What are you paying for

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emnick

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Having returned last night from the L.I.B.S. I had a heated debate with the misses, this was over the difference in price for a HR37 and a Bavaria 36 about 95K! I say the quality you get with the HR is worth it, she says that it cant be worth the extra, as you are paying labour, if cars were still built by hand we would all be paying much more. She had me!! What do you think where does the 95K go! Thanks

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Swedish Boats

I think you are paying for teak decks, and wood interiors, both fitted by carpenters rather than lads armed with Mastic to make good where things don't fit. Lined locker backs as well.

You are also paying for a strong Kroner, rather than benefitting from a weak-ish Euro.

5 years down the line, the HR37 will sell for what you paid for it, but the Bav will lose 20,000 squids in value. Just like my PEP/ISA unfortunately!

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With the HR you are buying an all weather boat.

With a Bav you get an boat which will perform very nicely in weather up to about F5, but which becomes a bit of a struggle and rather uncomfortable above that limit.

IMNVHO of course.

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Lead? Weight? Engine? Sails? Tankage?

Ballast
HR 37, lead keel, 3200 kg
Bav 36, iron keel, 1500 kg

Displacement
HR 37 7500 kg
Bav 36 5500 kg

Engine
HR 47 41 KW
Bav 36 14 KW

Sail Area
HR 37 77 sqm
Bav 36 66 sqm

Tankage
HR 37 Diesel 340 l, Water 400 l
Bav 36 Diesel 150 l. Water 300 l


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Re: Lead? Weight? Engine? Sails? Tankage?

Yes, they all cost money, but not 95K worth.

What's a bav36 cost nowadays? 80K? HR weighs 50% more, so the same boat built to Bav standard using their techniques would cost roughly 50% more (Actually slightly less, as there wouldn't be 50% more labour involved. So that accounts for roughly 40K worth of the price difference.

The remaining difference I'd have thought is due to higher skilled labour spending more time on the interior, better equipment and fittings, exchange rates and, probably most significant, the fact that they're built in small numbers, rather than on a production line. I wouldn't be surprised if this last point accounts for 30K, looking at how much bavaria have managed to drop their prices over the last few years.

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Never mind the argument you nincompoop, just buy the boat she wants, ESPECIALLY if it's the cheap one. Silly not to really. Get the bavaria, then blame her if the boat tilts about, breaks or anything goes wrong.

Note you could use the extra money to stay in hotels when it's a bit manky weather, go to nice restaurants when it raining, or get it shipped anywhere in the world and still have loads of spare change from £95k.

The HR is better, but not that much better. Also, they all use electric saw and mastic and bits from a catalogue. If I had HR brand i would always make sure they were nice and expensive, even if they cost less to make than the Bavaria.

Note: by making them cheap of course those dreadful Bavaria people are hateful corner-cutting gits. Similarly, by making their products more expensive, the HR bods are dreadful rip-off merchants.



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I posted this ( in reply to Ken Twisters comments) on the question I originally asked regarding any members experiences with Jeanneau's. It seems appropriate here.
"It appears that manufacturers find it cost effective to produce flat fast beamy hulls that slam and have an AVS of circa120 degrees or you pay twice the price for the HR's or long keel boats. We occassionally sail on a friend Rusler36 and I know what I would prefer to be on in a storm but we also charter our boat so a AWB is a necessity.
I cannot identify a boat that is cost effective to put out to charter and does not slam! Any recommendations? "
Do members believe there is a demand for a compromise more sea friendly shape with an AVS of say 140degrees but build by a production boat manufacturer albiet at a slightly higher price.
I have found it interesting to compare manufacturers price per kg not length. The quality end of the market is still a bit higher but you can understand better why the HR is dearer than the Bavaria.


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I wonder, if the price were not an issue (ie. you won a boat, and you could choose either a Bavaria or an HR of equivalent size), how many people would still choose a Bavaria? (Or you won £20m on the lottery, and a hundred £k here or there were no longer an issue...)

Come on now, be honest....

(I know that everyone is proud of their boat, no matter what it is - in the same way we are always proud of our children, no matter when their prison term ends...)

Is it worth a vote? - HR or Bavaria?
 
Re: Apples and pears

Boats aren't just chosen for sailability in a blow - loads of other factors play a part - and not just budget either. I've a Bav. I chose it because it offers great space below and in the cockpit, because sailing is a social activity too. I chose it because I could afford a bigger boat (i.e. even more space) than a smaller one from a more trad yard. I'm not that fussed about joinery either. I wanted reasonable speed, a decent engine and comfort extras so the family would come too. Sure, if I had half a mil and could chose pretty much any boat of 45' I might buy a trad brand. But I'd probably buy two modern brand ones and berth in different places!

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Re: Apples and pears

"I'd probably buy two modern brand ones and berth in different places! "

... hmmm. It's a good argument.

However, I wonder (given that anyone who buys a boat has some kind of budget), how many people actually *do* decide to buy two lesser boats, rather than just the one? Not too many, I suspect...

Alan

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Believe it or not there are lots of boats that are capable of long offshore voyages, not just the Rustler 36s, HRs and the likes, AND they do not have to conform to some arbitrary mathematical formula. It used to be said that you needed a Colin Archer to cross oceans safely, not too many believe that now I think, nor would they be happy with the slooowww performance, or the dark cramped airless interiors once the destination was reached. The paradox here too is that very often long distance cruisers spend more time in harbour than weekenders do, so the accomodation of the modern style AWB is really appreciated, exactly why charterers chose them.

Personally I find Rustlers very cramped for their size (even compared to my old W33 Ketch) and in todays marina based world their close quarter handling is at best mediocre. The HRs and their lookalikes too don't turn me on either anymore, when I looked at buying an HR36 a few years back it was no more roomy than my old W33 and in fact quite cramped below, not to mention there was a shortage of essential cockpit locker space as I recall. Now I will have upset a few peeps around here!

I wonder if the same arguments rage in France? The French seem very happy with their BenJens, even their imported Bavs, of course they do like their expensive aluminium Ovnis too for ocean cruising - but have you seen the AVS of those!!!

I am reminded too of a time when I skippered for my company SC when they chartered a Rival 41 for a weekend and it blew hard, F8-9 on the Friday, F4/5 on the Saturday and F9 on the Sunday. We aborted the wine run, went Solent to Poole after the wind dropped Friday night, went south round the Island to Cowes on the Saturday and just Cowes to Lymington in the SW9 on Sunday. That Rival would not tack without engine help in the short Solent seas (OK if we had used the staysail instead of the rolled genoa it would have helped) BUT there was this little 1/4 tonner, outboard cocked up on the transom, going past us, closer to the wind, faster than us and he could tack without engine help! OK so they had a wetter ride than we did, at least that is until we found the water over the floorboards down below that had syphoned up the loos. Good job it was a Rival and the ultimate seaboat or someone might have said that's what you get if you have an AWB, not suited to the rough stuff don't yer know!






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You can ask the same thing of any consumer item such as a car,why Merc v Ford,
I think if you can't answer that question or if it makes no sense to you better stick to the Ford.However Both Mercedes Benz and Hallberg Rassy are quality products which not only suit their intended purpose very well bu hold their value pro rata well in excess of Jeanneau etc.
I know which I'd rather own.
Samphire (ex Hallberg Rassy owner)

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Most things you buy will be a compromise, house, car, beer; a boat is no different. You buy the boat you feel will suit your needs best, some will get it right, others wrong. It has to be recognised that if the designs of the trad boats were so great, then they would still be available, their builders flourishing today. But its also very strange that there are always lots of 'nearly new' Bav's always up for sale, did their buyers make the wrong choice?

However many will still wish to stick to their trad boats, and good luck to them, why not? Others will want to buy 'NEW' and if the budget will not go to an HR then a Bav might be the anserw. But why is it the contenders in the debate should be from the oposite ends of the market (like Ford and merc)?

There are many other yachts that will fit in well between the two oposite poles; boats like Maxi, Hanse, Ellen and Etap.

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True,I suppose opposite ends of the spectrum argument are used for max effect,but there are many in betweens that suit everyone.I suppose its really a bit daft trying to compare HRs and Bavs even though they are both sailing yachts.
Samphire.

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So are we saying that Hallberg Rassey's don't slam?? In a good blow in the Straits of Gibraltar recently, alongside an HR40 something, I can assure you it was slamming everybit a much as the Jeanneau I was on. It showed us the front edge of it's keel every so often as well! The Jeanneau did have some interior damage to the forward cabin joinery as a result of the (really serious) pounding, but just maybe the HR did not. We were too busy to ask him....!!

I own a Bavaria 36 - I am not a blue water sailor, and I am very happy with it - it suits my limited sailing ability, and the cruising area I frequent (mainly the Greater Solent area). I could just about stretch to the new HR37, but for my purpose, it's simply just not worth the additional £95/100K.

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Do you notice how much more restrained both sides are now in the BenjenBav v Swedish Boats v the rest in the middle are than they used to be. A couple of years ago I can remember someone saying a thread on this subject was like a cyber version of fight club !!

I did notice recently that Opal’s brokerage advert in one of the mags seemed to have, if I recall correctly, 12 Second hand Bavaria for sale built since 2000, which seemed a lot. I also note they do not seem to sell, and the price reduces each month.

Obviously those who are not tied to the idea of a new boat tend not to be interested in Bavarias, and so their value drops too quickly. The cost of a boat is the difference between what it costs to buy and what you get when you sell (less lost interest on the excess money I suppose). On this basis, whether fair or not, HR’s and the ilk are actually cheaper.


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That is why I have never bought a new boat even though I make that mistake ever 3 years with the car! And I have never yet sold a boat for less than I paid for it provided I conveniently forget all the 'added value' I have spent on them in between.

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