BrendanS
Well-Known Member
I forgot momentarily that summarising without all the relevant details will always be picked up on!
I forgot momentarily that summarising without all the relevant details will always be picked up on!
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I disagree. What could the guy driving the big boat here possibly have done in the eight seconds from "no risk of collision" to "crunch".
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
doesn't really matter, the blame might be put mainly on one party, but both are blamed.
Magnum
RIP
Big boat skipper looks solidly blameless to me.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
Prove it.
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
I don't have to. Do a bit of research. Too busy to get into willy waving competitions.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
Brendan is right. The Colregs are written in a very clever way that means that there are no innocent parties in a collision.
Magnum
RIP
Not doubting that at all. It just seems very unfair that the big boat skipper in this situation could be blamed for this incident.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
This is not a willy waving competition. I am simply asking you to substantiate a quite extraordinary claim. All you need to do is give an example of someone being officially blamed for a collision when there was nothing whatsoever he could do to prevent it. Just one example.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
He couldn't. The idea that he could is doom-mongering fantasy
xyachtdave
Well-Known Member
Please explain.......?
DAKA
Well-Known Member
I'll explain seeing as he hasnt..........
X boat skippers are a law to themselves, they are oversized sailing dinghies built 1920s which causes two problems
The idiots that helm them believe that they have more right to be on the water than anyone else because their boat is older than anything else.
The idiots have the same mentality of an 8 year old in a pram dinghy (or a club dinghy sailor in a Scumsailer for the weekend/Bavaria skipper etc) and believe one rule Power gives way to sail, they get away with in it in Chichester harbour against sub 50ft mobos because the mobo skippers are polite and have their wits about them but when they try to maintain the same stupidity out into the Solent, being totality ignorant of all other col regs they get into all sorts of situations.
X boat skippers are a law to themselves, they are oversized sailing dinghies built 1920s which causes two problems
The idiots that helm them believe that they have more right to be on the water than anyone else because their boat is older than anything else.
The idiots have the same mentality of an 8 year old in a pram dinghy (or a club dinghy sailor in a Scumsailer for the weekend/Bavaria skipper etc) and believe one rule Power gives way to sail, they get away with in it in Chichester harbour against sub 50ft mobos because the mobo skippers are polite and have their wits about them but when they try to maintain the same stupidity out into the Solent, being totality ignorant of all other col regs they get into all sorts of situations.
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Its was also an unfortunate X boat that got dragged by the tide under the Sandbanks ferry in 2008.
In racing in a mixed fleet at Poole (separate starts/finishes) I start by obeying the rules but if iffy give way to avoid a collision as X boats do not tack as fast as a dinghy.
Not sure of all the circumstance of the above Ferry incident so prefer to think it got becalmed in the entrance and tide did the rest.
In racing in a mixed fleet at Poole (separate starts/finishes) I start by obeying the rules but if iffy give way to avoid a collision as X boats do not tack as fast as a dinghy.
Not sure of all the circumstance of the above Ferry incident so prefer to think it got becalmed in the entrance and tide did the rest.
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
IMHO, the ColRegs need amending to give commercial shipping priority over small leisure vessels. It's just daft that an 80,000 ton ship or even ferries should have to alter course because of people playing with their boats be they sail or power. The Italians are right on this one. The Solent is just one busy spot, but in the med there are numerous areas of much higher traffic concentrations, and quite rightly commerce expects people playing in leisure boats to get out and keep out of their way. It's common sense, never mind self preservation.
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
I agree, the Norwegians do this as well. They have a national amendment to COLREGS to make this happen, a bit like harbour bylaws in the UK.
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
The collision regs are quite simple, specific and they work - why change them?
The basis that the ship with the most ability to manoeuvrer does and otherwise is gives guidance on right of way (stand on).
If the regs depend on size where is the demarkation line and how can you be sure which side of the cut off size the other boat is and is it commercial or a great big luxury MoBo?
Realistically a small sailing vessel doing say 3kts has little ability to change its course/position to get clear of a container ship doing 30kts which only gives you 2 mins manoevring time once the container ship is 1ml away and appears to be on a collision course.
Think about it!
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Many believe the By laws are already in place.
Despite dinghy sailors /Bavaria owners thinking the Solent is open waters it is actually far from it and is a series of connected channels, which are indeed covered by Bylaws of harbour authorities.
In this case the Cowes harbour authority and these Bylaws
http://www.cowesharbourcommission.co.uk/documents/CowesHarbourByelaws.pdf
You will see that the ferry and ALL BOATS are under an obligation to enter by the fairway channel and to keep to the starboard side of that channel.
The ferry is a vessel that can only navigate within the channel and the X Boat has a duty not to impede.
Now plenty will protest and say the X boat cant be expected to know all by laws, but just about every harbour in the world has the same rules in keeping with common sense......... Prats playing in sailing boats shouldnt get in the way of a big boat, having sailed it really isnt a problem identifying 'big boats' !
On addition anyone with a Admiralty chart can see under the purple notes that they shouldnt get in the way of big boats.
see here for a copy of Cowes Admiralty chart
http://redirectingat.com/?id=635X49...ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204833&page=3
.
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
I'm sure in the interest of a bit of balance here, you would also condemn those in powerboats who get a regularly get 5 blasts in Lymington river?
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
I think you will find that is only between certain dates and I believe you would be surprised how little the ferry draws.
I accept the general trend and the polite/sensible thing to do is get out of the way of a ferry in the channel but strickly speaking I think the Co regs apply in the channel as well as the Solent.
I remember seeing a vigerous debate as to how far the fairway extended and don't want to resurrect that one!
DAKA
Well-Known Member
The ferrys draft is not relevant as the By law forces it to navigate only to the starboard side of the channel.
There was some debate about where the fairway started but its specified with lat/long and I have posted an Admiralty chart above which shows the fairway in purple , it was my hope that we could move on from that debate now.
http://redirectingat.com/?id=635X49...ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204833&page=3
seasonal is a red herring as the incident was with in the 'season' was it not.
NAVIGATING IN FAIRWAY
11.(a) The Master of a small vessel which is not confined to a fairway shall not
intentionally make use of the fairway so as to cause obstruction to other vessels
which can navigate only within the fairway.
(b) The Master of a vessel crossing a fairway or of a vessel turning shall so navigate
as not intentionally to cause obstruction to any other vessel.
I too dont want to get drawn into the same debate, thats why I left it 2 years ago, I assumed there would be an official release by now, but the incident seems to have been filed.
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