Whale electronic bilge switches

[Zing]

Of course it does. Why wouldn't it - that would be totally pointless.

Portofino, I know you love your airco but you have been bamboozled if you believe your smart inverter-fed DC compressor motor is better than the smart inverter fed 3ph AC motors that I and Nigel have. They just are not. There are some operating modes at which DC brushless are marginally better than smart-inverter induction motors and some where the opposite is true, but it is absolutely untrue to say DC brushless are generally better than smart-inverter induction motors. Indeed in high performance applications the induction motor is invariably better. You can insist on saying the opposite just cause your airco tech said so, but I doubt he really understands electric motors properly, really properly.

I'm confused by this. The Frigomar brochure linked to by Portofino talks only about using a psm motor, a 3 phase motor therefore in all probability and no different from the Cruisair you mention. There is no mention of DC. However, I found their smaller stand alone units are described as being DC inverter powered motors. This doesn't sound correct to me as inverter drive means Variable frequency drive and this means AC frequency. There is no such thing as DC frequency. Introduce a frequency and you have AC. You can have pulse control, but that is not AC either. Or it could really be DC, but the what would be the point of an inverter then? I suspect there is marketing muddle at play.

Veco also do a small VFD unit to compete with Frigomar and both can operate to about 20% of nominal output, with no start up peaks, plus a very high level of COP efficiency. Very attractive units and better than anything I have seen in the Cruisair lineup.

I don't think it is relevant to the units as mentioned, but I do think brushless DC can be extremely efficient actually, no less so than 3ph VFD motors.

 

[Portofino]

Here are the refferences to back up my posts thus far .
Yes the could lands AC motors have soft start these days but only over approx 50-60,000Btu
Nigel's on the cusp .
I took it the 1/4 reduction with soft start ( if he has one fitted ? ) from a graph for single phase .
Three phase is worse ,less of a reduction 1.8 to 2 ---- remember we are not exactly sure which .
Even so which ever phase ,he,s on for 4-5 tons ish for a big 50 ftr ,his start up load and more importantly running amps ( we hav not touched on continuous ruunning ) - will be LESS with a DC brushless motor .
So in dodgy shore power area s with other stuff running as agreed ,charger ,water heater , hob ,hair dryer kettle etc ,
Every amp saved has gotta be beneficial .

I was in a marina in August on the visitors jetty with my 32 A shorepower plugged in ,The two adjacent boats around 50 ft could not run there Aircon - -- we could .
There s no need to go down -(not yet ) the LBOK route .
Yes I do know the differences between DC brushless and AC induction -that's the whole raison d entre .
AC has no magnet any where so relies on the current to create the magnetism to turn it -when stopped ,ie at start this requires 300-600 % more to get the thing the move ---- hence the surge = trip out .
Where as a DC has magnets and requires a lot less current surge
Both systems can be soft started and indeed the lasted Emerson / coup land stuff indeed has this from circa 2012 standard in the bigger units .The threshold being arround 50-60 000- where I suspect Nigel is ?
Looking at the data even with digital tech coup lands AC motors only slow to 67 % or stop !
And the 3 phase soft start may be reduces by a factor of 2
And I think 1/4 for single is a reasonable no to use .
Where as the BLDC frigomar has a more variable motor can slow right down ,which it does it and never stops -hence no chance of a restart -trip while hair dryer , kettle , hob ,water heater ,charger etc are running .
captains and owners are fed up with excuses for Aircon tripping shore power . How many times do see the Geny running and shore power connected ?
Also the two pumps are running -sea water and circulation of cold water -they too add to the load

What's not to like about it for a Med boat owner -?
Lower start up and lower running consuption
It's so quiet the main unit as well ---

http://www.hypereng.com/literature/SC5600HM-SureStart-Specification-Catalog.pdf

http://www.emersonclimate.com/Documents/CopelandSecureStartOverviewPresentation.pdf

http://www.emersonclimate.com/europe/ProductDocuments/AlcoLiterature/EN_CSS TB.pdf

http://www.orientalmotor.com/technology/articles/AC-brushless-brushed-motors.html


http://www.completepowerelectronics...ison-between-bldc-motor-with-induction-motor/

 

[Portofino]

I'm confused by this. The Frigomar brochure linked to by Portofino talks only about using a psm motor, a 3 phase motor therefore in all probability and no different from the Cruisair you mention. There is no mention of DC. However, I found their smaller stand alone units are described as being DC inverter powered motors. This doesn't sound correct to me as inverter drive means Variable frequency drive and this means AC frequency. There is no such thing as DC frequency. Introduce a frequency and you have AC. You can have pulse control, but that is not AC either. Or it could really be DC, but the what would be the point of an inverter then? I suspect there is marketing muddle at play.

Veco also do a small VFD unit to compete with Frigomar and both can operate to about 20% of nominal output, with no start up peaks, plus a very high level of COP efficiency. Very attractive units and better than anything I have seen in the Cruisair lineup.

I don't think it is relevant to the units as mentioned, but I do think brushless DC can be extremely efficient actually, no less so than 3ph VFD motors.

Yes the blurb here is confusing -this mentions BLDC
How ever it works as in does not trip
I,am one of these guys who can say to a tech "don,t bore me with the techno babble --just get me something that works --- and is quiet "
Maybe something s lost in transaction ?
http://www.frigomar.com/en/products...hiller-inverter-dc-technology-advantages.html

 

[IDAMAY]

Morning Nigel! You seem to have stirred up a right little hornets nest with your second innocent question. I haven't much to add. Only to say that we were able to run the chiller and up to three air handling units on 16 amp shore power in most of the marinas down to Porto. We never switched off the battery charger but usually did switch off the water heater and certainly didn't try it with the hob or oven on. That was on a Dometic system of probable 2010 origin. I totally agree with JFM about the rotten electricity systems in most marinas and it is especially surprising in warmer climes. I think your best solution is definitely to get moved to a 32 amp berth if at all possible.

 

[jfm]

Here are the refferences to back up my posts thus far .
Yes the could lands AC motors have soft start these days but only over approx 50-60,000Btu
Nigel's on the cusp .

Porto, I admire your tenacity! Look, Copeland don't make motors, they make scroll compressors. someone else makes the motor. I'm not talking about crude soft start; I'm talking about smart VFDs which are much more advanced things. They come standard on Dometic 3 ton chillers upwards, not4-5 ton as you write above, and nigel has already confirmed he has VFD drive.

Basically all your soft start talk is nonsense and your numbers are plucked from the sky. I repeat that there is a benefit of your type of system which is that the scroll compressor can now run over a wide speed range. Dometic do the same; nothing special about Frigomar. You can build one with a VFD a/c motor or a DC brushless; it doesn't care so long as the motor has variable speed. The benefit of the Copeland compressor's wide speed range is you can run the thing at half speed all day instead of at full speed 50% of the time, cycling on and off, and that's a nice benefit. It's not life changing but it is nice. A staged bank of chillers (instead of your one only) gives you a similar effect (plus redundancy). As for the rest I need to rafiki you because I don't have the energy!

 

[jfm]

... their smaller stand alone units are described as being DC inverter powered motors. This doesn't sound correct to me as inverter drive means Variable frequency drive and this means AC frequency. There is no such thing as DC frequency. Introduce a frequency and you have AC. You can have pulse control, but that is not AC either. Or it could really be DC, but the what would be the point of an inverter then? I suspect there is marketing muddle at play.

Veco also do a small VFD unit to compete with Frigomar and both can operate to about 20% of nominal output, with no start up peaks, plus a very high level of COP efficiency. Very attractive units and better than anything I have seen in the Cruisair lineup.

I don't think it is relevant to the units as mentioned, but I do think brushless DC can be extremely efficient actually, no less so than 3ph VFD motors.

Zing, there are some confusing labels in the world of motors. ALL rotational motors ever made since the dawn of time need the current to reverse, ie AC. Even your classic 50p toy motor has AC going through the windings. sure you connect it to a DC battery, but as the commutator spins past the brushes the current reverses, ie the winding sees AC.
In a DC brushless motor the magnet is in the rotor and the windings are the stator. Hence no brushes. You therefore need to pump AC through the windings, and you need to phase the AC according to the rotational position of the rotor. You do all this using a smart inverter that creates the AC and phases it using information supplied by an angular position sensor in the motor. The "DC" refers only to the fact that you supply DC into the inverter; the motor's windings still see AC.

The Veco thing sounds nice. Dometic also do one - it has all started since Copeland invented the variable speed scroll. Engineeringly this is nice, but it is surely not life changing. What exactly is the benefit of running constantly on 20% output? On a decent system you need a bank of compressors not a single one, for redundancy (given that AC is mission critical to guest comfort) and so you can get a similar effect from the fact that the compressors are automatically sequenced, ie you can run 33% or 50% constantly on one of the compressors. And you can tweak that further (in a limited range of about 70% to 100%) by adjusting the Hz output of the VFDs, if you can be bothered

 

[Nigelpickin]

'Rafiki you'
Another noun bites the dust
Anyway, bilge pump switch is replaced, I will pick up a bag full when back in the UK in December; then work through the boat - doubling up.
Just the 32 amp to sort out now.

First day of rain today Richard!

 

[Zing]

Zing, there are some confusing labels in the world of motors. ALL rotational motors ever made since the dawn of time need the current to reverse, ie AC. Even your classic 50p toy motor has AC going through the windings. sure you connect it to a DC battery, but as the commutator spins past the brushes the current reverses, ie the winding sees AC.
In a DC brushless motor the magnet is in the rotor and the windings are the stator. Hence no brushes. You therefore need to pump AC through the windings, and you need to phase the AC according to the rotational position of the rotor. You do all this using a smart inverter that creates the AC and phases it using information supplied by an angular position sensor in the motor. The "DC" refers only to the fact that you supply DC into the inverter; the motor's windings still see AC.

The Veco thing sounds nice. Dometic also do one - it has all started since Copeland invented the variable speed scroll. Engineeringly this is nice, but it is surely not life changing. What exactly is the benefit of running constantly on 20% output? On a decent system you need a bank of compressors not a single one, for redundancy (given that AC is mission critical to guest comfort) and so you can get a similar effect from the fact that the compressors are automatically sequenced, ie you can run 33% or 50% constantly on one of the compressors. And you can tweak that further (in a limited range of about 70% to 100%) by adjusting the Hz output of the VFDs, if you can be bothered

Thanks I think that is an accurate explanation for the reason for the mixed nomenclature there. I checked and some DC motor controllers do actually use the words inverter control.

The advantage of being able to dial down the output of an air con unit is several fold. It means with small units where it is not possible or viable to install a multi stage bank of compressors you can still achieve variable output. It means you can avoid switching on and off - each time you switch on you have to build pressure in they system, which costs energy you don't use. It is more comfortable as the temperature can be accurately modulated to control changes to miniscule levels. Switching works of max/min set points and each time you switch on you get a small distracting blast of cool air. It is quieter not to hear the switching on and off, it is also quieter because by outputing constantly the peak system outputs are reduced. It means a system can be sized to cover a wide range of environments and still operate efficiently at all times. It is no coincidence that the whole world of building aircon has gone down this route in a massive way.

 

[jfm]

Thanks I think that is an accurate explanation for the reason for the mixed nomenclature there. I checked and some DC motor controllers do actually use the words inverter control.

The advantage of being able to dial down the output of an air con unit is several fold. It means with small units where it is not possible or viable to install a multi stage bank of compressors you can still achieve variable output. It means you can avoid switching on and off - each time you switch on you have to build pressure in they system, which costs energy you don't use. It is more comfortable as the temperature can be accurately modulated to control changes to miniscule levels. Switching works of max/min set points and each time you switch on you get a small distracting blast of cool air. It is quieter not to hear the switching on and off, it is also quieter because by outputing constantly the peak system outputs are reduced. It means a system can be sized to cover a wide range of environments and still operate efficiently at all times. It is no coincidence that the whole world of building aircon has gone down this route in a massive way.

Yep all agreed. Buildings of course use 3ph A/C motors with VFDs to control the speed, not DC motors. Without disagreeing generally, things are slightly different in a boat compared with a building. For sure in a small boat where you can't have a bank of compressors variable speed scrolls make good sense. In a decent large boat you'll always have a bank. The consumption of energy point is a big deal in a building but not at all in a boat, where you are consuming vast energy all round and the saving of a jamjar full of diesel doesn't really matter to anyone. And on a big boat you just cant hear the compressors at all and noise management is all about and the air handlers.

But we are agreeing - I said above before you joined the thread that variable speed compressors are nice; but I also said they are not life changing, ie the benefits while nice are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. I'd spec them on a new boat but it would be crazy to retrofit them if the existing gear is perfectly ok. And to get back to Portfino's point, the choice between variable speed scrolls and fixed speed has nothing to do with start up current spikes because decent fixed speed units have gentle start up current ramps because they have AC-to-AC VFDs

 

[Nigelpickin]

32a problem solved, new berth allocated by the lovely team at the marina.
Thank you for all the information/advice.

 

[Portofino]

Yep all agreed. Buildings of course use 3ph A/C motors with VFDs to control the speed, not DC motors. Without disagreeing generally, things are slightly different in a boat compared with a building. For sure in a small boat where you can't have a bank of compressors variable speed scrolls make good sense. In a decent large boat you'll always have a bank. The consumption of energy point is a big deal in a building but not at all in a boat, where you are consuming vast energy all round and the saving of a jamjar full of diesel doesn't really matter to anyone. And on a big boat you just cant hear the compressors at all and noise management is all about and the air handlers.

But we are agreeing - I said above before you joined the thread that variable speed compressors are nice; but I also said they are not life changing, ie the benefits while nice are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. I'd spec them on a new boat but it would be crazy to retrofit them if the existing gear is perfectly ok. And to get back to Portfino's point, the choice between variable speed scrolls and fixed speed has nothing to do with start up current spikes because decent fixed speed units have gentle start up current ramps because they have AC-to-AC VFDs

Yes all agreed except the last sentence in the contex of a small boat on 16 A shorepower @ visitors berth or dodgy 32 A in the high season .
Here every amp saved means less chance of exceeding headroom and --click --tripping out .
While AC powered compressors with soft start mitigate the starting surge ,they don,t bring it down to 2A per 3 1/2 tons .
Then there's the running comsuption that's lower too -like for like BTU comparing AC with Variable Frequency Devices with BLDC motors
In a small boat every "saved "Amp ,the more headroom with what ever shore power you have got the better .
Also it's just a plug n play -no messing about manually adjusting the AC down to cope with crummy shorepower .

Re retro fitting
-Not all Marina shore power is equal , more so in the Med !
Even bigger in boats the prob of Aircon trip out is just extrapolated up , the numbers are just bigger .
Obviously if old AC kit retro fit soft starters .Newer big stuff -sure Dometic stuff has AC soft starters fitted ,but after that -where do you go - if the Aircon trips -- run the Geny to top up ?
Or retro a less power hungry system , in both start up and running -----if it's possible multiple units of
42-62000 BTU,s
I,am not saying if it not broke fix it -agree 1000's of v happy AC Traditional - Aircon boats all sizes perfectly functioning with home shorepower and visiting or if tripping @ visiting berth it's not " mission critical "

This is not a my boat Vs your boat -

Its in my view what can be done to mitigate Aircon trip out ( for those how are plagued with it ) -first one has to understand the root cause .

Hopefully those following this will kinda now understand ?

It's just a case of which system has the softest start for a give like/like BTU -to keep below the headroom tripping point
And which system is significantly less power hungry when running -also to keep the boat below the tripping point .

VFD AC powered compressor. Vs BLDC motor powered compressor

 

[BartW]

FWIW,
my solution to the tripping 16A shore connection is a Victron Quatro invertor (x2)
enabling me -to set the max current the boat takes from the shore connection
and -to take the airco startup current from the battery's

in reality this means that I can run my 70ft boat from 2 x 16 amp sockets
with all traditional AC motors for the airco
(normally I need 1 x 63A or 2 x 32A)

I realise that I’m probably the only boat in the world with this solution,
But this has helped us out, and has been used on many occasions ! (both in France and Croatia)
and I had most of the Victron gear installed anyway (for the electric fin stabilisers)

in this tread is a explanation of our system
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...Canados-70s)&p=5644360&highlight=#post5644360

yes sure there is always’s the generator,
but I hate my neighbours to use a genny, so I avoid using it myself in a marina.

 

[Portofino]

Zing, there are some confusing labels in the world of motors. ALL rotational motors ever made since the dawn of time need the current to reverse, ie AC. Even your classic 50p toy motor has AC going through the windings. sure you connect it to a DC battery, but as the commutator spins past the brushes the current reverses, ie the winding sees AC.
In a DC brushless motor the magnet is in the rotor and the windings are the stator. Hence no brushes. You therefore need to pump AC through the windings, and you need to phase the AC according to the rotational position of the rotor. You do all this using a smart inverter that creates the AC and phases it using information supplied by an angular position sensor in the motor. The "DC" refers only to the fact that you supply DC into the inverter; the motor's windings still see AC.

The Veco thing sounds nice. Dometic also do one - it has all started since Copeland invented the variable speed scroll. Engineeringly this is nice, but it is surely not life changing. What exactly is the benefit of running constantly on 20% output? On a decent system you need a bank of compressors not a single one, for redundancy (given that AC is mission critical to guest comfort) and so you can get a similar effect from the fact that the compressors are automatically sequenced, ie you can run 33% or 50% constantly on one of the compressors. And you can tweak that further (in a limited range of about 70% to 100%) by adjusting the Hz output of the VFDs, if you can be bothered

I asked Frigomar a few q,s
Here's what they say thus far -which hopefully answers the point raised
Iam hoping for some like for like start up current and running consuption info
--------/--------------
We have PMSM motors, said BLDC, ensuring the best possible efficiency.
We are the only one in marine market supplying the very last generation of inverter BLDC chillers and self-contained units, allowing 40-45% seasonal energy saving.
The system is powered at 230 AC then current is rectified obtaining 350VDC that will be supplied to MOSFETS. The MOSFETS convert 350VDC in a 3-phase current with variable voltage and frequency, thus generating a rotating magnetic field. Permanent magnets rotor will follow the rotating magnetic field while the electronics detects the rotor position by measuring the back electromotive force to the stator windings, with no need of any position detection sensor. The system is said sensorless ensuring a great reliability. Magnets are made of Neodimium having magnetic field 5 times bigger than ferrite.

By adjusting voltage and frequency we can start smoothly the compressor without inrush current, and during operation we adjust the frequency based on the delta between set point temperature and real temperature, avoiding start and stop cycles that are very energy consuming.

 

[BartW]

I have never managed to bridge 2 16a sockets - they just pop ( in one case the whole pontoon .....). Is there a trick?

Jeremy, If you have tried this, I assume that you understand the risc of touching a live pin from one of the plugs ?

if you do, and want to use the LBOK,
here is a short guide to check if you can use it on your place:

select the two 16a sockets that you want to use,
measure with the a volt meter if each socket is live 210.....240V, they should read the same value !
then measure with the volt meter, the voltage between the 2 left pin's from each socket, should read 0 volt
and then measure the voltage between the two right pins, should also read 0 volt.
(the 2 sockets should be oriented in the same way !)


if you read anything else than 0V, you can't use the LBOK on these two sockets,
you could try to select another pair, (or keep one socket and choose another to mate with)
and measure again.

I do have a LBOK onboard, but AFAIR i never used it
I remember one occasion where I could use it,
but the power pole was in a pedestrians street and too far from the boat ,
so that I could never see if someone was mending this weird connection, and putting himself to risc,
so I didn't use it

I really want to warn again not to make nor use this LBOK if you don't understand the potential danger !

 

[jfm]

...which hopefully answers the point raised.

Not wishing to be difficult but what frigomar said adds nothing to the discussion. All they say has been said above (apart from the marketing element)

 

[jfm]

I really want to warn again not to make nor use this LBOK if you don't understand the potential danger !

+1. I would just add that you should be careful testing the pin-to-pin voltage if you have a €10 multimeter of the type we all have loads of. If the pins are on different phases the voltage is 400+ and the insulation on the probes and leads of a cheap multimeter might not be good for 400v. It may be ok - I'm just saying you should think about it especially as you would be applying the voltage across your two hands ie the path is right across the top half of your body and your plastic soled trainers or shoes aren't going to do anything useful

 

[Portofino]

+1. I would just add that you should be careful testing the pin-to-pin voltage if you have a €10 multimeter of the type we all have loads of. If the pins are on different phases the voltage is 400+ and the insulation on the probes and leads of a cheap multimeter might not be good for 400v. It may be ok - I'm just saying you should think about it especially as you would be applying the voltage across your two hands ie the path is right across the top half of your body and your plastic soled trainers or shoes aren't going to do anything useful

+2
I would add back in the Uk an Electrician friend told me to be careful with £10 multimeters and AC --seen heard accidents .
Of couse these are different from professional voltmeters .Also I have seen them wear really heavey duty rubber gauntlets that go up passed the elbow and extra thick soled shoes .
As Superheat infers 440V won,t hurt -you will be dead

But how and where does an RCD fit into the shorepower ?

 

[RobWales]

Had a problem with my main supply at home recently, engineer arrived open the supply box outside and upon looking inside said "ah ok, be back when I've got the gauntlets and flash screen from the van" came back with thick black rubber gloves over the elbow together with a full face shield.....
Apparently my main breaker was faulty and he refused to even touch without the protection on.....
Take no risks......this was only....hmmm only 240v.