Whale electronic bilge switches

[Nigelpickin]

Hi

I've a couple of switches that have failed recent inspections...one is dead the other is intermittently switching on when dry. Both are part of the dehumidifying system, (sealed wet box with stain in and pump
Out).

So - is there any way to maintain them back to life or if I replace, is there a better brand. Need to be 24v with no hard switch.

Any thoughts appreciated, especially as my three bilge pumps rely on the same kit; three years old seems a bit short to fail?

Regards

 

[jfm]

The whale solid state switches are the work of the devil. I have just one OEM on this boat and the previous boat, and must have installed 6+ replacements. Last time, I fitted a proper float switch instead, and that's what I would do it I were you (or fit another type of switch like water witch - anything but a Whale solid state switche). The whale switches are inherently and consistently unreliable imho

As a separate point, all my float switches are installed "double". Two side by side wired in parallel, so that either one will energise the relevant pump. I've done it this way because in my experience they tend to fail open circuit, and they fail plenty due to being a bit made in china-ish

 

[neale]

Would one of these do the job? http://www.excel-marine.co.uk

I was going to fit one in my shower sump having suffered continual failures with traditional float switches, but the 10 second delay in turning on was too long for this application. Would imagine it will be fine for a dehumidifier with a slower rate on ingress.

 

[Nigelpickin]

The whale solid state switches are the work of the devil. I have just one OEM on this boat and the previous boat, and must have installed 6+ replacements. Last time, I fitted a proper float switch instead, and that's what I would do it I were you (or fit another type of switch like water witch - anything but a Whale solid state switche). The whale switches are inherently and consistently unreliable imho

As a separate point, all my float switches are installed "double". Two side by side wired in parallel, so that either one will energise the relevant pump. I've done it this way because in my experience they tend to fail open circuit, and they fail plenty due to being a bit made in china-ish

That's good enough for me, I will create the redundancy as you suggest and do more regular testing from now on.
While you're reading John, your opinion on the following problem; our ac system, water chiller, 5 x head units - hot and cold ring, will always trip a 16a shore supply, never a problem with a 32a supply or the 11kw gen set.
Does that sound right?
I'm pushing the marina for a move to a berth with a 32a supply but of course they are blaming the boat!

Regards

 

[Nigelpickin]

Would one of these do the job? http://www.excel-marine.co.uk

I was going to fit one in my shower sump having suffered continual failures with traditional float switches, but the 10 second delay in turning on was too long for this application. Would imagine it will be fine for a dehumidifier with a slower rate on ingress.

Thank you, will order one and check it out, small world - they make them about 2 miles away from my office!

 

[jfm]

Yes, sounds right. Superheat6k is a proper expert but on a boat your size with one chiller I'd expect it is a 5 ton/60,000btu/hr chiller, or perhaps a 4 ton. On the single phase 230v side that will pull perhaps 18-25 amps. I'm guessing and the current depends on what refrigerant the chiller has plus the temperature of the seawater coolant on the day, and it will pull a few amps more in heating than cooling mode, but I'd be sure it will always pull > 16 amps and <32 amps.

To state the obvious, you will also have other loads on the shorepower. Even if not cooking you'll have the battery charger and fridge/freezer "background" loads.

Imho marinas are living in the dark ages. Your boat needs 32Amps minimum on its berth. 16 amps is a joke for a modern ~50foot boat. That's why it has the 11kva genset (40amps+) not a 4kva tiddly genset!

If there are spare 16amp shorepower sockets and you're sure they're on the same phase (they almost certainly will be if side by side on same post) then you can always make up a thing (known on forum as LBOK) to plug into 2 sockets, to get 32 amps. But a proper 32amp socket is better

 

[Nigelpickin]

Yes, sounds right. Superheat6k is a proper expert but on a boat your size with one chiller I'd expect it is a 5 ton/60,000btu/hr chiller, or perhaps a 4 ton. On the single phase 230v side that will pull perhaps 18-25 amps. I'm guessing and the current depends on what refrigerant the chiller has plus the temperature of the seawater coolant on the day, and it will pull a few amps more in heating than cooling mode, but I'd be sure it will always pull > 16 amps and <32 amps.

To state the obvious, you will also have other loads on the shorepower. Even if not cooking you'll have the battery charger and fridge/freezer "background" loads.

Imho marinas are living in the dark ages. Your boat needs 32Amps minimum on its berth. 16 amps is a joke for a modern ~50foot boat. That's why it has the 11kva genset (40amps+) not a 4kva tiddly genset!

If there are spare 16amp shorepower sockets and you're sure they're on the same phase (they almost certainly will be if side by side on same post) then you can always make up a thing (known on forum as LBOK) to plug into 2 sockets, to get 32 amps. But a proper 32amp socket is better

Thanks John, I've fired an email at them with a version of the above which will hopefully indicate that I know what I'm talking about...
I will have a look at an LBOK, I can guess what that acronym might translate to!
I guess you are saying that one cable from the boat with a double head for the Marina stanchion? I will research further and then get my insulation tape out from the tool box.

Thanks again, did you try that Camel Valley out yet?

 

[jfm]

Thanks John, I've fired an email at them with a version of the above which will hopefully indicate that I know what I'm talking about...
I will have a look at an LBOK, I can guess what that acronym might translate to!
I guess you are saying that one cable from the boat with a double head for the Marina stanchion? I will research further and then get my insulation tape out from the tool box.

Thanks again, did you try that Camel Valley out yet?

Yes the Lethal Bit Of Kit is just a V shape thing - 2 pieces of cable a foot long connected into one flying socket, and one plug on the other end of each bit of cable, so you can plug into two shorepower sockets exactly as you say. Potentially lethal because (I) when you plug one plug into the shorepower the exposed pins on the other are live 230v, and (ii) if you don't understand 3-phase and manage to join two phases on the shorepower you'll short the thing with 415v across the short, which will spark/bang nicely. I might have scoffed a few years ago and named it LBOK but have to humble pie-ishly admit I made one up for Cala D'Or to join 2x 32A connections because there is no other way to run my boat there, such is the pathetic shorepower in that otherwise lovely place.

Camel Valley is/was awesome. 2 left I think, to be drunk this winter. Everyone loved it. Must post pictures of that day! Many many thanks for that treat!

 

[superheat6k]

The issue with 16 amp shore supply and tripping when the compressor starts might be due to the operating curve of the MCB fitted.

Compressors use high torque induction motors, and these require a breaker that will endure a start surge without tripping. This means a D curve breaker.

If you read closely the breaker will state on it B16, C16 or D16. This is the speed at which the trip will operate under overload conditions, which is what happens briefly when the compressor starts and pulls up to 7 times its full load current. Even a 5a compressor can trip a 16a B curve, especially if for instance the kettle or immersion are also on. Our own yard was rewired recently and the live-aboards were up in arms due to continuous trips of the B16 breakers, that replaced the older C16.

On the subject to 2 x 16 to 1 x 32a flying splitters - yes indeed lethal things, as is also connecting two shore power leads to separate shore power boxes not fed from the same phase.

Power distribution feeders are normally 3 phase, with several outlets fed off one phase and neutral, then the next group off the next phase, etc. The phase to phase voltage of two boxes on the same phase is 0 volts, but the phase to phase voltage of two on different phases is ~400 volts. So if you have two shore cables merrily attempting to both bring to the same on board distribution single phase box two different phases something is going to make a very loud and very frightening spark, most likely as you plug the second one in, when it will nearly blow your hand off.

240 volts hurts as anyone who has had a belt will know. However, 400 volt belts don't hurt - BECAUSE YOU WILL BE DEAD.

At minimum any sockets on a marina on the same trot should be from the same phase, but I have never seen any warning anywhere advising not to connect separate shore power connections to the same vessel. But then the blasé attitude to having shore power cables droop into the water, sometimes used as extra securing lines and the manky state of some leads amazes me there are not more electrocutions.

 

[jfm]

Superheat, all agreed, and good to reinforce the "be very careful" message with the LBOK.

Regarding the breaker's curve, afaik all 5 tonne and 6 tonne (+ bigger) compressors from Dometic (the usual supplier, and the one afaik fitted to Nigel's Presige) have, as part of the OEM kit, at worst soft start little boxes and at best VFDs that ramp up the Hz from 0 to 50 or 60Hz, so as to completely remove the start up current spike. With the VFDs you can watch the current drawn on the boat's meter go from 0amps to say 23 amps over about 5 seconds with no spike at all. Otherwise the things just wouldn't work with 5 ton chillers and 50 foot boats and normal European shore power.

On my boat I have 2x 6 tonne chillers with 3ph phase motors, VFDs that ramp up from 0 to 60Hz slowly, and a box that sequences the start up of the two chillers. Each chiller takes about 22 Amps full load on the 1ph side in cooling mode with 20 degree C seawater, and I could actually run them on B breakers because there are no spikes at all. This is standard dometic hardware, straight from the catalogue, nothing custom about it. When on very weak shorepower I can run just one chiller and turn the knob on the VFD to 40Hz running, so as to pull minimal current and get a modest amount of refrigeration - better than tripping a breaker if the shore power is crummy. Nigel you might have this feature too on your VFDs if it is a Dometic system. Don't go below 40Hz continuous running btw or you'll bust the Copeland compressor.

 

[Portofino]

A very experianced boat electrician fitted one of these systems .
Apart from the start up curent issues disappearing -2A - the air handlers are v quiet -which was the main brief , and the unit itself -so we can run em all night
We have a small Geny and no pressure really for a bigger one too .
If you have or anybody has problematic shorepower ( for what ever reason ?) resulting in a/c tripping -then swop to a DC brushless inverter chiller .
Also seems the old tech AC motors in the Dometic stuff turn off when cool enough ,which I guess could cause another trip if it dicides to restart later ?
http://www.frigomar.com/images/PDF/FRIGOMAR_chiller-inverter-DC_eng.pdf

 

[Nigelpickin]

Superheat, all agreed, and good to reinforce the "be very careful" message with the LBOK.

Regarding the breaker's curve, afaik all 5 tonne and 6 tonne (+ bigger) compressors from Dometic (the usual supplier, and the one afaik fitted to Nigel's Presige) have, as part of the OEM kit, at worst soft start little boxes and at best VFDs that ramp up the Hz from 0 to 50 or 60Hz, so as to completely remove the start up current spike. With the VFDs you can watch the current drawn on the boat's meter go from 0amps to say 23 amps over about 5 seconds with no spike at all. Otherwise the things just wouldn't work with 5 ton chillers and 50 foot boats and normal European shore power.

On my boat I have 2x 6 tonne chillers with 3ph phase motors, VFDs that ramp up from 0 to 60Hz slowly, and a box that sequences the start up of the two chillers. Each chiller takes about 22 Amps full load on the 1ph side in cooling mode with 20 degree C seawater, and I could actually run them on B breakers because there are no spikes at all. This is standard dometic hardware, straight from the catalogue, nothing custom about it. When on very weak shorepower I can run just one chiller and turn the knob on the VFD to 40Hz running, so as to pull minimal current and get a modest amount of refrigeration - better than tripping a breaker if the shore power is crummy. Nigel you might have this feature too on your VFDs if it is a Dometic system. Don't go below 40Hz continuous running btw or you'll bust the Copeland compressor.

Spot on re my system, it has a very shallow wind up and funnily enough it's never a problem at start up - but the master volts, the hob and the calorifier are on the same circuit...I imagine the master volt moving from float to Abs would push it over the edge, let alone the water heater keeping up with Ann's 30 minute showers.....

 

[Portofino]

Spot on re my system, it has a very shallow wind up and funnily enough it's never a problem at start up - but the master volts, the hob and the calorifier are on the same circuit...I imagine the master volt moving from float to Abs would push it over the edge, let alone the water heater keeping up with Ann's 30 minute showers.....

Interesting to know if the initial soft ish start JFM describes applies to the cyclical restarts after its reached temp?
Catching out the shorepower some time in ?

 

[Nigelpickin]

Interesting to know if the initial soft ish start JFM describes applies to the cyclical restarts after its reached temp?
Catching out the shorepower some time in ?

That I don't know but it just about makes sense to me, I will check!

 

[jfm]

Interesting to know if the initial soft ish start JFM describes applies to the cyclical restarts after its reached temp?

Of course it does. Why wouldn't it - that would be totally pointless.

Portofino, I know you love your airco but you have been bamboozled if you believe your smart inverter-fed DC compressor motor is better than the smart inverter fed 3ph AC motors that I and Nigel have. They just are not. There are some operating modes at which DC brushless are marginally better than smart-inverter induction motors and some where the opposite is true, but it is absolutely untrue to say DC brushless are generally better than smart-inverter induction motors. Indeed in high performance applications the induction motor is invariably better. You can insist on saying the opposite just cause your airco tech said so, but I doubt he really understands electric motors properly, really properly.

 

[Portofino]

Of course it does. Why wouldn't it - that would be totally pointless.

Portofino, I know you love your airco but you have been bamboozled if you believe your smart inverter-fed DC compressor motor is better than the smart inverter fed 3ph AC motors that I and Nigel have. They just are not. There are some operating modes at which DC brushless are marginally better than smart-inverter induction motors and some where the opposite is true, but it is absolutely untrue to say DC brushless are generally better than smart-inverter induction motors. Indeed in high performance applications the induction motor is invariably better. You can insist on saying the opposite just cause your airco tech said so, but I doubt he really understands electric motors properly, really properly.

Not wanting to row ,but I never compared the two motor types AC /DC -or said which is better .
Just identifying a solution to a seemingly common problem --air con tripping shore power in the Med .All the slow start( -if its slow enough not to trip) hassle is taken away with the Frigomar DC system .
The Copeland soft start device I suspect is fitted on bigger stuff or optional ? Many perhaps Nigel has not got it ?
If he had why he,s got probs ?

Even then it brings the start current down ,but no where near 2A for a like for like frigomar 42'000 Btu .
If the start current for a Copeland AC compressor is 70a + or - 10 est then a 1/4 of that with a soft start is near 16 A
Which kinda explains what Nigels saying = trip
So in that respect start current -I'll leave it up to the readers to dicide which is " better " as you say .

Air co tech is retro fitting this stuff into new (ish) boats at owners request for the very problem Nigels experiencing .
Even with soft start deviced OEM Aircon .
Even yourself @ weak shorepower moorings could benefit by having 2x60'000 running full tilt all night or when on the hook powered by a smaller perhaps arguably quieter dedicated genset ?

The main brief was silent running --all night long --- just happened to benefit from bypassing all this shore power trip buisness .

 

[jfm]

I too do not wish to row but like rafiki the other day I'm about to give up. Your numbers are just absurd portofino

Your claim that soft start hassle is taken away with frigomar is total bolx. A DC brushless motor simply doesn't work without a smart vfd. I'm mean, it's totally impossible due to the laws of physics. I realise from your post that you don't know how a brushless motor works. The necessary smart vfd controller is basically the same device that is installed with a smart inverter induction motor (except that the DC version's software needs to know the rotor position, whereas an induction motor vfd doesn't) so your "hassle" point is incorrect.

Your statement that the VFDs I refer to cannot bring the start current down to the 2amps of your frigomar is also incorrect. As said above, the smart inverter technology is the same in both cases and the start current ramp up can be literally anything that the software asks for, subject only to what is needed to overcome static friction but that's the same in both cases (we are both running Copeland). Also it is not optional on the size of compressor we are talking about- 4 tons approx or more. It is part of the standard kit when you buy the chiller from dometic.

And your 70 amps X 1/4 and 16 amps is total garbage that you have completely plucked from the sky. The 70amp figure is fantasy and the X 1/4 is fantasy. Those figures bear no relation to any reality

There is a difference between yours and dometics that you seem not to know about and it has nothing to do with start currents. I think yours has a Copeland unit with a wider acceptable rpm range- a recent Copeland invention. It can therefore run all day at say half speed instead of cycling in/out at a fixed 65-100% speed like mine and Nigel's. That's nice but not life changing. It means you might be able to run on weak shore power for a continuous period but ultimately on a summer afternoon the thing will run at the full btu/hour need of the boat so you haven't really solved the problem. In a traditional sequenced chiller set up like mine I can solve that by FORCING the system to draw half or a third of the normal FLA current by switching a chiller off or turning the vfd hz down to say 40 (instead of 60) , which you can't do with your single variable speed chiller. So there are some swings and roundabouts there.

The fact your guy is fitting them doesn't change any of the facts. For all the ones he is fitting 100 others aren't so it kinda indicates nothing. Anyway let's leave the discussion as soon as poss!

 

[MapisM]

I might have scoffed a few years ago and named it LBOK but have to humble pie-ishly admit I made one up for Cala D'Or to join 2x 32A connections because there is no other way to run my boat there, such is the pathetic shorepower in that otherwise lovely place.

No worries there.
Getting scoffed at is something I'm used to, when I suggest KISS solutions...
...which are often adopted later! :encouragement:

 

[jrudge]

Yes, sounds right. Superheat6k is a proper expert but on a boat your size with one chiller I'd expect it is a 5 ton/60,000btu/hr chiller, or perhaps a 4 ton. On the single phase 230v side that will pull perhaps 18-25 amps. I'm guessing and the current depends on what refrigerant the chiller has plus the temperature of the seawater coolant on the day, and it will pull a few amps more in heating than cooling mode, but I'd be sure it will always pull > 16 amps and <32 amps.

To state the obvious, you will also have other loads on the shorepower. Even if not cooking you'll have the battery charger and fridge/freezer "background" loads.

Imho marinas are living in the dark ages. Your boat needs 32Amps minimum on its berth. 16 amps is a joke for a modern ~50foot boat. That's why it has the 11kva genset (40amps+) not a 4kva tiddly genset!

If there are spare 16amp shorepower sockets and you're sure they're on the same phase (they almost certainly will be if side by side on same post) then you can always make up a thing (known on forum as LBOK) to plug into 2 sockets, to get 32 amps. But a proper 32amp socket is better

I have never managed to bridge 2 16a sockets - they just pop ( in one case the whole pontoon .....). Is there a trick?

 

[MapisM]

I have never managed to bridge 2 16a sockets - they just pop ( in one case the whole pontoon .....). Is there a trick?

Nope, no specific trick.
You can find the original LBOK proposal in this 2012 post, together with all the debate that followed.
If that's what you made to bridge the two sockets (the LBOK is a very exclusive thing you know, it can only be custom made! ), and you always had the connection tripping, are you sure to have made a consistent wiring of the two male plugs?