Westways in administration

Magnum

Magnum

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Westways, Plymouth's Jeanneau and Beneteau dealer have gone into administration. Unfortunately it looks like there are several people with deposits at risk. Thank God I contracted directly with CNB otherwise I would have been one of them.

We live in very unstable times :(
 
Magnum said:
Westways, Plymouth's Jeanneau and Beneteau dealer have gone into administration. Unfortunately it looks like there are several people with deposits at risk. Thank God I contracted directly with CNB otherwise I would have been one of them.

We live in very unstable times :(
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That's a shame. I bought my first proper boat from them and have good memories of the way they dealt with it.
 
sarabande said:
there's a very intriguing little paragraph on their website....

http://www.westways.co.uk/content/bordeaux-60

A narrow escape ? Or did your antennae say something ?
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I bought my last boat from Sunseeker Sales Group. Shortly after delivery they folded and nearly all their staff started working for a new company ... in the same building.

No prizes for guessing what their attitude to warranty issues was.

After that experience there is no way that I would have contracted with a dealer. Even with a manufacturer, bank guarantees are essential.
 
Peters Opal (or, more strictly, B A Peters Plc - then dealer for, amongst others, Bavaria, Legend and Island Packet) went into administration in 2007. There was lots of talk in the aftermath that something had to be done to protect customer deposits against something like that happening again.

Here we are, nearly four years later, and the same problems remain.

Magnum, I envy the fact that you are a sufficiently important client for a boat builder/dealer to adjust their normal business model to suit your requirements.

Unfortunately, mere mortals just get shoehorned into the broker's normal structure. In many cases this means the dealer gets the deposit and you can't be sure if/when they have paid it across to the builder.

When will this system be changed across the board, so that no purchaser stands to lose money if a dealer goes bust? Has anything been done since Peters?:confused:
 
Angele said:
Peters Opal (or, more strictly, B A Peters Plc - then dealer for, amongst others, Bavaria, Legend and Island Packet) went into administration in 2007. There was lots of talk in the aftermath that something had to be done to protect customer deposits against something like that happening again.

Here we are, nearly four years later, and the same problems remain.
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Let's hope that those forum members who posted on the earlier threads saying that the current arrangements worked and that customer's money was adequately protected are proved right.
 
Angele said:
Unfortunately, mere mortals just get shoehorned into the broker's normal structure. In many cases this means the dealer gets the deposit and you can't be sure if/when they have paid it across to the builder.

When will this system be changed across the board, so that no purchaser stands to lose money if a dealer goes bust? Has anything been done since Peters?:confused:
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This is scaremongering.

Firstly, how do you know what is going on in the current Westways failure?

Secondly you are confusing "brokers" and "dealers" . They are NOT the same thing, although Westways (like Peters) could be acting in either capacity with different clients.

If deposits are lost that is because the buyers have failed to take on board the lessons of Peters and the advice of the trade associations, which is to only pay deposits into a client account or obtain a bank guarantee.

Just paying to the dealer into their trading account makes you an unsecured creditor if they go bust.

It is indeed a weakness in the boat buying process that there is a potential for lost deposits - but that is no different from any other retail business where a deposit is paid in advance of receiving the goods. If you order furniture from any of the major chains you have to pay typically a 20% deposit, which is at risk until the furniture is delivered.

At least when you are buying a boat you may have the opportunity to protect your deposit - or refuse to deal with the dealer. That may mean that you can't buy the boat you want, but you may be prepared to take the risk.
 
I repeat my previous advice

Until this issue is resolved pay deposits by credit card. In the event of a bankrupcy by law the CC will refund your money.

Using a cash back credit card as I did also secures another 1% discount on the deposit amount at least!
 
When I was selling new yachts in the early 1990's during the last recession many clients insisted on their stage payments being put in an escro account or held by a solicitor until completion. No reason why you cannot do this with a brokerage if you are concerned about their operation.

Do brokerage governing bodies insist on fidelity bonded client accounts (as do some in the housing/letting industry) which provides some peace of mind to the purchaser and vendor.
 
Magnum said:
Westways, Plymouth's Jeanneau and Beneteau dealer have gone into administration. Unfortunately it looks like there are several people with deposits at risk. Thank God I contracted directly with CNB otherwise I would have been one of them.

We live in very unstable times :(
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Didn't realise they were Benny agents. Thought that was Ancasta.
 
Tranona said:
This is scaremongering.
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I am sorry that you think I am scaremongering, although I am unsure which bit of my post you are concerned about. I don't think I am suggesting anywhere that people are necessarily going to lose money, I am just saddened by the fact that much of the industry still functions in the same way as it did back in 2007.

Tranona said:
Firstly, how do you know what is going on in the current Westways failure?
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I don't know, although my post was in response to Magnum who said "it looks like there are several people with deposits at risk".

Tranona said:
Secondly you are confusing "brokers" and "dealers" . They are NOT the same thing, although Westways (like Peters) could be acting in either capacity with different clients.
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Apologies for my sloppy use of "brokers" and "dealers" as interchangeable words. I do understand they are different. It does not, however, change the sentiment I was trying to express - which was largely a reference to buying a new boat from a dealer.

Tranona said:
If deposits are lost that is because the buyers have failed to take on board the lessons of Peters and the advice of the trade associations, which is to only pay deposits into a client account or obtain a bank guarantee.
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I would take pity on someone who contracted with a dealer, without fully understanding the consequences and without the knowledge/experience of what might go wrong.

Tranona said:
Just paying to the dealer into their trading account makes you an unsecured creditor if they go bust.
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Similarly, paying money into an account labelled "client account" does not guarantee your money is safe unless the bank accepts that it is holding the money on trust for you.

Tranona said:
It is indeed a weakness in the boat buying process that there is a potential for lost deposits - but that is no different from any other retail business where a deposit is paid in advance of receiving the goods. If you order furniture from any of the major chains you have to pay typically a 20% deposit, which is at risk until the furniture is delivered.
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It may be the same as a retail business, but it is very different (for example) to house buying, where a deposit is held in a lawyer's client account. For some people, buying a new boat is much closer in significance to house buying than it is to buying a new sofa.

Tranona said:
At least when you are buying a boat you may have the opportunity to protect your deposit - or refuse to deal with the dealer. That may mean that you can't buy the boat you want, but you may be prepared to take the risk.
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Fine for those who understand the risk and are prepared to insist on having it their way (like Magnum). Not everyone does (understand or insist).
 
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Recognise that you are taking your cue from the OPs suggestion there may be deposits at risk. However, there is nothing illegal about dealers taking unsecured deposits and one can feel sorry to a degree for people who suffer as a result, just as one feels sorry for the people who lost millions in, for example, the Courts failure, or holiday property deals of all sorts, or home improvements etc - the list is endless.

What I find difficult is that given all the publicity about the risks and all the advice, people who clearly have the ability to raise enough finance to buy a new boat still don't seem to appreciate the risk of paying an unsecured deposit to a limited company. They must take some responsibility for their own actions and not bleat about how unfair it all is.

I agree that, given the sums involved there needs to be a more secure way of dealing with deposits and stage payments, and there already is through client accounts, bank guarantees, Escrow accounts, paying by credit cards, ownership transfer contracts etc. Of course many of these have a cost attached to them, but if buyers refused to buy if an unsecured deposit was requested, dealers would soon reconsider their way of doing business.
 
Indeed, Westways are sadly in administration and I'd just taken The Bear down to Plymouth to have a free (not any more!) winter service and some warranty items attended to. The latter will be covered probably by Jeanneau through another dealer but I will have to fork out for a few hundred quid I didn't plan on spending.

The reason for the administration given to me this morning by John Elder, Westways MD, is that Jeanneau are trying to squeeze dealer margins in order to reduce price without having to reduce build cost. I don't expect that the Euro exchange rate is helping either. So spec for boats sold in Britain may well be pared down by dealers to hit a price target. John was left with no margin, so no business.

Richard Lewis of Grant Thornton in Bristol (0117 305 7600) is the Administrator in case anyone needs to get in touch. Rob at Southern Cross Yachts in Plymouth (01752 408773) is picking up the repair work from Westways with one or two of their ex-employees.
 
Thats a real shame I bought my boat from them new three years ago and they were absolutely excellent. I thought they were one of the more solid outfits around but I did notice they weren't advertising in the usual rags for the last few months. If they go down what does that say for other brokers?
 
There's another issue with dealers/agents - under the Sale of Goods Act, they are responsible for defects to the boat. If you have a major problem, they may not have the resources.
 
The problem with dealers (by this I mean new yacht sales and not used/brokerage) is that the manufacturers (usually foreign) dictate the terms of business and they have to buy a certain amount of stock new boats as part of their terms and conditions which can seriously affect their cashflow especially if they get more desperate and take a part exchange in that will not sell either. As also stated exchange variations - in this case a strong Euro - will not help and reduce margins massively.

Whilst Westaways may have a brokerage attached, most pure brokerages (ie don't sell new yachts) do not have this problem as they do have the outlay involved in holding stock boats and professional ones usually have money protection schemes.
 
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