Westerly Storm weather helm

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cindersailor

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How much of an issue is weather helm for the Storm? From what I have managed to find out from various sources it only shows itself to any serious extent when pushing hard. If this is the case it's probably not much worse than many boats. Would anyone who knows the Storm well be willing to comment on whether it is an issue that significantly reduces the enjoyability of the boat as a long term cruising choice?
 
Weather helm is adjustable. In the short term simply by sheeting in or out the main or genny, and longer term by altering the length of the forestay to shift forwards or backwards the centre of effort of the sail plan. You ideally need a bit of wether helm anyway.
 
A Storm owner that I used to race against a lot offshore used to say "If you trim out the weather helm, you trim out the speed". That kind of supports "only shows itself to any serious extent when pushing hard".
 
They do have that reputation but the secret is to reef early and try and keep the boat upright so she holds her course. A working jib on an inner forestay with 2 or 3 reefs in the main and you will cope with most weather fine. If using a autohelm or hydrovane it is especially important to reduce sail earlier. We have crossed Biscay several times and been out to the Azores and Canaries so I can thoroughly recommend the breed. If any other questions please PM me as they say on the forum. I recall now another Storm took part in one of the RTW rallies and was fine , although a bit slower than most of the fleet which were more like 40 ft. As far as cruising is concerned avoid more than 4 on board, whilst they are great for double handing too though not as fast as modern machines.
 
This is yet another area of confusion, because, although many of us conventionally use the term "weather helm" to describe the sensation of pull on the helm, generally when sailing hard on the wind, the term properly refers to the angle of the rudder/tiller when sailing and not the force on the helm. In some conditions on a close fetch, my boat, from a different marque, can develop a weather helm of some ten degrees and yet will continue to sail a straight course with the helm released. Generally, a boat when hard pressed will show both increased weather helm and force on the helm, but there are times when it helps to keep the two issues separate.
 
Thanks Brainstorm. I currently sail a Varne 27 which I am very pleased with, but am looking ahead to longer term cruising and want a boat that sails as well but with better accommodation, headroom etc. I enjoy the qualities of the Varne in challenging conditions and the Storm has the same reputation which is one aspect that attracts me. I have been toying with the idea of a Vancouver 32 or even a Tradewind 35, liking the cutter rig, but fear that I would become frustrated with the windward and light wind performance. I sail mostly single handed and want to stick with tiller steering. It's starting to look like the Storm ticks most boxes for me. I will just have to resign myself to living with a Volvo engine which was one of 'must NOT haves' due to price of parts and not wanting to repeat my father's experience of keeping an ageing md2 alive! Could always re-engine at the right price I suppose.
 
I agree completely with brainstorm. The weather helm builds up with the wind strength, as you'd expect, but is only difficult when using a Genoa. We have a working jib (full fore triangle sized) and weather helm is never a problem. It's there but provides feel. Using the inner Genoa tracks when sailing to windward helps too, as does reefing the main. We cruise with just the two of us, and enjoy our sailing. The jib loses us some speed in lighter winds, but downwind we use a cruising chute if appropriate.
 
cindersailor said:
Thanks Brainstorm. I currently sail a Varne 27 which I am very pleased with, but am looking ahead to longer term cruising and want a boat that sails as well but with better accommodation, headroom etc. I enjoy the qualities of the Varne in challenging conditions and the Storm has the same reputation which is one aspect that attracts me. I have been toying with the idea of a Vancouver 32 or even a Tradewind 35, liking the cutter rig, but fear that I would become frustrated with the windward and light wind performance. I sail mostly single handed and want to stick with tiller steering. It's starting to look like the Storm ticks most boxes for me. I will just have to resign myself to living with a Volvo engine which was one of 'must NOT haves' due to price of parts and not wanting to repeat my father's experience of keeping an ageing md2 alive! Could always re-engine at the right price I suppose.
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You could add another boat to your list of choices. Not quite as spacious as a Storm, the Fulmar is a beautiful boat to sail. Very well balanced and no problems at all in heavy weather. Also has a 3/4 rig for easier foresail handling and very unlikely to have a Volvo. They were originally raced and many also were used by sailing schools in all weathers, need I say more. I own one and sail it singlehanded most of the time. Go to the Westerly Owners Association forum and check out this thread I wrote http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/woaforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3234. Also check out my other thread on my renovations http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/woaforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2748, with photographs in my signature. If you have any questions then just ask (by PM if you prefer).
 
Weather helm usually relates to the heel of the boat. It is a function of assymetry of the hull in the water and drive centre of the sails being outboard of the drag of the hull. (ie keel).
The kind of weather helm associated with balance of sails centre of effort only shows at low angle of heel and speed.
In instructor acreditation we had to do an exercise of performing a figure 8 manouvre on a smallish boat with helm lashed or free. You use crew weight and heel to steer the boat into a tack then back the jib to pull the bow around. Then use the jib with main free to drag the boat around to running. (ie use sail balance). Then boat heel to get it to gybe. Easier on some boats than others but you quickly get the message as to the forces that steer a boat apart from rudder. good luck olewill
 
As William_H says, weather helm is mostly caused by heel, which moves the centre of effort of the sails away from the centreline of the boat. It's as if a motor boat had the propeller out to one side on an outrigger.
 
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1) A bigger boat that sails as well as the Varne does not automatically lead to the Westerly Storm. There are loads of options;

2) boats of the vintage of the storm will generally come with shagged out sails, which induce excess heel (for a given point of sail), which induces excess weather helm. Put a sharp new cruiselam suite on a Storm and I'm sure the problem would not be a problem. People talk about all sorts of things to do with the hull and underwater geometry when talking about boat performance, hardly anyone ever mentions that almost all of these old boats they have sailed with such problems have knackered sails. New sails make a huge difference and, of course, every boat designer designed for good sharp sails, not knackered ones.... strange how the design always gets framed for the problem.
 
As suggested, it's well worth looking at a Fulmar, the main difference which might be important to you, is that the Fulmar does not have a separate aft cabin. If the budget will stretch, it's also worth looking at an Ocean 33, which was the new generation Fulmar replacement, which does have an aft cabin. As far as performance goes; the WOA handicap system gives 1000 for the Storm, 1006 for the Fulmar and 952 for the O33.
 
With the Storm, Vancouver 32 and Tradewind in the mix you are casting your net pretty wide, as the others have hinted.

My guess is you would not be happy with the Storm it is a quantum away from the other two and a very different proposition to the Fulmar.

A keen and competitive racer/singlehander I know has just put a redesigned rudder on his Storm, in order to seek a better compromise. He has had the boat over 10 years so he is no quitter.

If you like your Varne, look for something deep, thin and well ballasted. It might still try to pull your arms off but it will sail straight, even on it's ear.
 
johnalison said:
This is yet another area of confusion, because, although many of us conventionally use the term "weather helm" to describe the sensation of pull on the helm, generally when sailing hard on the wind, the term properly refers to the angle of the rudder/tiller when sailing and not the force on the helm. In some conditions on a close fetch, my boat, from a different marque, can develop a weather helm of some ten degrees and yet will continue to sail a straight course with the helm released. Generally, a boat when hard pressed will show both increased weather helm and force on the helm, but there are times when it helps to keep the two issues separate.
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This is a new concept for me. The boat requires 10 degrees of tiller offset to combat weather helm and yet continues to sail a straight course if the tiller is released? Can you explain further?
 
richardbrennan said:
As far as performance goes; the WOA handicap system gives 1000 for the Storm, 1006 for the Fulmar and 952 for the O33.
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That must be a cruisy Storm rig. IIRC under IRC we'd see Storms in the 920s with Fulmars in the 880s or 890s. Notwithstanding my love of Fulmars (I've just bought another one!), the Storm is a much more powerful boat.
 
Concerto said:
You could add another boat to your list of choices. Not quite as spacious as a Storm, the Fulmar is a beautiful boat to sail. Very well balanced and no problems at all in heavy weather. Also has a 3/4 rig for easier foresail handling and very unlikely to have a Volvo. They were originally raced and many also were used by sailing schools in all weathers, need I say more. I own one and sail it singlehanded most of the time. Go to the Westerly Owners Association forum and check out this thread I wrote http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/woaforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3234. Also check out my other thread on my renovations http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/woaforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2748, with photographs in my signature. If you have any questions then just ask (by PM if you prefer).
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Thanks Concerto. Your Fulmar is certainly a labour of love and she is looking great. I have no doubt that the Fulmar sails really well, but unfortunately I just find them a rather unattractive design (subjective I know). I also do not like the rather old fashioned layout below. By all accounts the tendency to weather helm seems to have been solved on the newer reincarnation of the Storm (Regatta 330), which is also fractionally rigged, but not sure I like the somewhat wacky styling below. Ocean 33 is certainly an attractive proposition, but not sure the budget will stretch that far.
 
I am not an expert on racing handicaps, but the WOA system, which I believe was base loosely on the Portsmouth Yardstick, seems to work in the opposite way to the IRC system, so the lower the number, the faster the boat. The Storm Cruiser is listed separately and has the number 1060
 
reeac said:
This is a new concept for me. The boat requires 10 degrees of tiller offset to combat weather helm and yet continues to sail a straight course if the tiller is released? Can you explain further?
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It is a curious characteristic of my boat when on a close fetch, especially when pressed. The boat simply rebalances itself with the helm a little to the side, not usually more than a few degrees, though sometimes more, but there is next to no pull on the helm, which happens to be a tiller. I have been told that this is a deliberate part of the design by Frers, but it is not evident when close-hauled. Somewhere or other I have a video clip of me letting go of the helm for five or ten seconds at the best part of eight knots speed without the boat changing course much, but the tiller well to the weather side.
 
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