'Wear and tear' on LA starter battery when used with lithium

pcatterall

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Next time I need new domestics I will have a good look at getting Lithium. I am considering a 'hybrid' system retaining my LA starter and using a B2B to charge the Lithium.
As the LA would be doing extra work would it affect the battery life?
 

Pete7

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We have this set up. Battery monitor suggests that when connecting in the DC>DC Orion, the alternator ramps up the current but the voltage is pretty stable. Hybrid btw is a mix of lithium and lead acid as they play nicely when connected together.

DC>DC Victron chargers get hot, really hot. Mount it with lots of ventilation.

Pete
 

geem

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We have this set up. Battery monitor suggests that when connecting in the DC>DC Orion, the alternator ramps up the current but the voltage is pretty stable. Hybrid btw is a mix of lithium and lead acid as they play nicely when connected together.

DC>DC Victron chargers get hot, really hot. Mount it with lots of ventilation.

Pete
Also worth installing a switch to the terminals so you can turn the B2B charger on/off easily.
Also worth thinking about how you would deal with a BMS failure on the lithium. Can you run the boat off the engine battery? Is the swap over to the engine battery easily achieved when it's howling, middle of the night in shipping lanes and the boat loses all its power?
 

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Also worth installing a switch to the terminals so you can turn the B2B charger on/off easily.
Also worth thinking about how you would deal with a BMS failure on the lithium. Can you run the boat off the engine battery? Is the swap over to the engine battery easily achieved when it's howling, middle of the night in shipping lanes and the boat loses all its power?
In our case we have a circuit breaker normally off, only connecting the DC>DC charger when needed. The Victron Orion DC>DC smart can be switched into a power supply mode if necessary to power domestics like lights, VHF etc. So we have some options.
 

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Another note as on topic - DC DC do get very hot and almost all only run the internal fans whilst in use for charging (normally when the engine is on via a sense sir sin the key switch to activate the DCDC) - so when the engine goes off the fans stop immediately even though the unit has been up until then very hot with a fan ... I'm just setting up computer fans with a timer switch for my two DCDC (they are 60 amp so really meaty) to run on after they go off. An on off switch that you remember to use on a £5 PC fan may well be a good idea if you have to site in a less well ventilated location
 

geem

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Another note as on topic - DC DC do get very hot and almost all only run the internal fans whilst in use for charging (normally when the engine is on via a sense sir sin the key switch to activate the DCDC) - so when the engine goes off the fans stop immediately even though the unit has been up until then very hot with a fan ... I'm just setting up computer fans with a timer switch for my two DCDC (they are 60 amp so really meaty) to run on after they go off. An on off switch that you remember to use on a £5 PC fan may well be a good idea if you have to site in a less well ventilated location
Victron B2Bs don't have fans, just a large finned heatsink to the rear. Also limited to 30amps at 12v.
 

Trident

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Victron B2Bs don't have fans, just a large finned heatsink to the rear. Also limited to 30amps at 12v.
Yes, I've used them but a bit small for some applications and of course as noted above they get really hot because of it - I have two 60 amp Renogy on my own boat as I have two 125A alternators so a 50% duty cycle seems as high as I should go to keep long life in the alternators. (As a side note why the heck my two 20 hp Yanmars ONLY come with 125a alternators from the factory is another question )
 

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Yes, I've used them but a bit small for some applications and of course as noted above they get really hot because of it - I have two 60 amp Renogy on my own boat as I have two 125A alternators so a 50% duty cycle seems as high as I should go to keep long life in the alternators. (As a side note why the heck my two 20 hp Yanmars ONLY come with 125a alternators from the factory is another question )
20hp?
 

geem

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Yes, I've used them but a bit small for some applications and of course as noted above they get really hot because of it - I have two 60 amp Renogy on my own boat as I have two 125A alternators so a 50% duty cycle seems as high as I should go to keep long life in the alternators. (As a side note why the heck my two 20 hp Yanmars ONLY come with 125a alternators from the factory is another question )
Being a 24v boat, we use the Victron 17amp B2B so 34amp in 12v money. Its not a primary source of charging so I don't really expect to need it. We can charge from the generator at 100 amps at 24v if we needed to. I really don't expect to do that either.
The wind gen is also a hydrogenerator that pumps out plentry of amps when sailing so with that and solar I expect we will happily meet our needs
 

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Yes, the original spec for the Quasar 50 was a pair of 20 hp engines. Mine had been converted as some time to a pair of 3GM30 and many have 45s etc as for some reason people these days always think bigger is better. I changed back to new 3YM20s which saved £40 kg at the back of the boat, use 1L an hour at 2000 rpm where we make 7 kn in calm water and at full revs we can do 10 knots which is more than enough and there is enough power to push through rough seas if needed. The boat only weights about 8 tonnes since I rebuilt her so its more than enough.

My original plan was to go electric but its just not doable on a cruising boat in my opinion with current technology unless you are really prepared to curtail what you do and possibly safety too. I must say whilst we've never needed the alternators to charge us up yet as the solar has never been insufficient I do love the "free" hot water the engines give even in the short time it takes to go into an anchorage or up a river etc and knowing they always work and can if needs be, stick 120 amp in via the DCDC is great. May need to change my 2 blade foldings for 3 blade though ... still testing that
 

geem

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Yes, the original spec for the Quasar 50 was a pair of 20 hp engines. Mine had been converted as some time to a pair of 3GM30 and many have 45s etc as for some reason people these days always think bigger is better. I changed back to new 3YM20s which saved £40 kg at the back of the boat, use 1L an hour at 2000 rpm where we make 7 kn in calm water and at full revs we can do 10 knots which is more than enough and there is enough power to push through rough seas if needed. The boat only weights about 8 tonnes since I rebuilt her so its more than enough.

My original plan was to go electric but its just not doable on a cruising boat in my opinion with current technology unless you are really prepared to curtail what you do and possibly safety too. I must say whilst we've never needed the alternators to charge us up yet as the solar has never been insufficient I do love the "free" hot water the engines give even in the short time it takes to go into an anchorage or up a river etc and knowing they always work and can if needs be, stick 120 amp in via the DCDC is great. May need to change my 2 blade foldings for 3 blade though ... still testing that
Hmm, How do you get a 13t boat down to 8t?
Our Prout 37 ŵas lightened to hell. We replaced all lose ply with foam core composite panels. Also the doors and table. A single engine, aluminium anchor, small amount of chain, saw the tooth brush in half, etc we did have the tallest mast ever fitted to a 37 though. The boat had a minimal fit out. No cupboards and only a door to the heads in foam core.
We kept that boat super light. One of the very few 37s that thr nacelle was not in the water. It weighed 5.3t in cruising trim. Sails fitted, some water and fuel, food and ready to go.
A friend has a 56ft foam cored huledl cat, carbon mast, carbon daggerboard. Its an excellent boat and so it should be with a $2M US build cost in 2000. Its supposed to be 9t empty but made of exotic lightweight materials. I have been on a couple of Prout 50s. You must have removed the interior bulkheads and started again with core panels to strip out that weight. They are no lightweight flying machines.
I weather routed my pals boat from St Martin to Horta. 12 day passage. A true lightweight performance cat. I would love to know where you saved the weight?
 

Trident

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Hmm, How do you get a 13t boat down to 8t?
Our Prout 37 ŵas lightened to hell. We replaced all lose ply with foam core composite panels. Also the doors and table. A single engine, aluminium anchor, small amount of chain, saw the tooth brush in half, etc we did have the tallest mast ever fitted to a 37 though. The boat had a minimal fit out. No cupboards and only a door to the heads in foam core.
We kept that boat super light. One of the very few 37s that thr nacelle was not in the water. It weighed 5.3t in cruising trim. Sails fitted, some water and fuel, food and ready to go.
A friend has a 56ft foam cored huledl cat, carbon mast, carbon daggerboard. Its an excellent boat and so it should be with a $2M US build cost in 2000. Its supposed to be 9t empty but made of exotic lightweight materials. I have been on a couple of Prout 50s. You must have removed the interior bulkheads and started again with core panels to strip out that weight. They are no lightweight flying machines.
I weather routed my pals boat from St Martin to Horta. 12 day passage. A true lightweight performance cat. I would love to know where you saved the weight?
The original weight from the factory is 9.5 tonnes (the wider 23 foot version of the Quasar was heavier) but we removed 3 large skips full of material, replaced everything except the main bulkhead with lightweight materials, removed 2 of 4 heads and all associated bulkheads (non structural) some corridor ceilings, some 80 kg of wire by using a distributed network, and on and on, All doors are blown pvc board so weigh nothing, sole boards are 10mm foam core ply composite, no flex but very light, lighter engines, changed the fuel tanks from the original 500L of stainless to 200L of HDPE, removed the pushpit and pulpit , removed the 60kg front platform between the nets and welded an 11kg alloy one instead, saved 50 kg on the battery bank (and trebled the size in lIfepo4) rebuilt the entire galley in lightweight materials etc.

Now to clarify the weight - two readings - one at 8 tonnes when dropped in after the rebuild but with dry water and fuel tanks and no possessions on board - lightship weight as its called (though unlike the manufacturers it did at least have oil and coolant in the engines) - more recently when it came out for the lighter engines but we were living aboard and had water in the tanks (900L full, so a full fuel and water load is over 1.1 tonnes, though I foolishly forget to check how much water was in when it was lifted) and possessions aboard it was 9.3 tonnes (on a different lift). I fitted two water makers so that I could, if required keep the tanks with just 100L a side to keep weight nearer the 8T mark than the 9T mark but setting out for the circumnavigation all bets are off as we have about 300Kg of cat food alone aboard and another 100kg in cat litter stores as well as spares and two very heavy spare sails. We are now sitting within 1cm of the original water line (still not quite down to that mark) whereas in normal local trim we are 2-3 inches off the marks.

I have not yet reached the obsessiveness of the guy I shared a pontoon with for two years with a high mast Rapier 400 rocket ship who even changed and weighed all his water pipe because it was built with the alloy cored plastic that was in vogue then and he saved 12kg by changing it all to Hep20 . :D
 

geem

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The original weight from the factory is 9.5 tonnes (the wider 23 foot version of the Quasar was heavier) but we removed 3 large skips full of material, replaced everything except the main bulkhead with lightweight materials, removed 2 of 4 heads and all associated bulkheads (non structural) some corridor ceilings, some 80 kg of wire by using a distributed network, and on and on, All doors are blown pvc board so weigh nothing, sole boards are 10mm foam core ply composite, no flex but very light, lighter engines, changed the fuel tanks from the original 500L of stainless to 200L of HDPE, removed the pushpit and pulpit , removed the 60kg front platform between the nets and welded an 11kg alloy one instead, saved 50 kg on the battery bank (and trebled the size in lIfepo4) rebuilt the entire galley in lightweight materials etc.

Now to clarify the weight - two readings - one at 8 tonnes when dropped in after the rebuild but with dry water and fuel tanks and no possessions on board - lightship weight as its called (though unlike the manufacturers it did at least have oil and coolant in the engines) - more recently when it came out for the lighter engines but we were living aboard and had water in the tanks (900L full, so a full fuel and water load is over 1.1 tonnes, though I foolishly forget to check how much water was in when it was lifted) and possessions aboard it was 9.3 tonnes (on a different lift). I fitted two water makers so that I could, if required keep the tanks with just 100L a side to keep weight nearer the 8T mark than the 9T mark but setting out for the circumnavigation all bets are off as we have about 300Kg of cat food alone aboard and another 100kg in cat litter stores as well as spares and two very heavy spare sails. We are now sitting within 1cm of the original water line (still not quite down to that mark) whereas in normal local trim we are 2-3 inches off the marks.

I have not yet reached the obsessiveness of the guy I shared a pontoon with for two years with a high mast Rapier 400 rocket ship who even changed and weighed all his water pipe because it was built with the alloy cored plastic that was in vogue then and he saved 12kg by changing it all to Hep20 . :D
Sounds like you have done a massive amount of work. Still amazed you can get anywhere near 8t.
A lagoon 52, as declared is 26t.
We know from experience of two catamarans that weight, or lack of it, is everything in a catamaran.
By the way, you can buy cat food in every supermarket in the Caribbean🙂
 

Trident

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Sounds like you have done a massive amount of work. Still amazed you can get anywhere near 8t.
A lagoon 52, as declared is 26t.
We know from experience of two catamarans that weight, or lack of it, is everything in a catamaran.
By the way, you can buy cat food in every supermarket in the Caribbean🙂
One of my cats is very fussy! Cosma pure skipjack tuna and shredded chicken breast (£12/kilo and human food grade - not bad for a street cat from Spain!!)

I was just out of the water for the bottom job and next to a Lagoon 52 called Vengeance (!?) and honestly you could fit two of me easily in to it - don't forget the Quasar (unlike even the later Prout 50 not built by Prout) is only 6m wide and the hulls are very fine (based on the Ostar winning 45 design built just to be the first cat to win that race) so no island beds etc - a standard sized double over the bridge deck is all you get) no second story helm station etc - in fact its only inches higher than you SG37 - and by chance (as it wasn't really thought about back then) the hull gap to length ratio is very close to the sweet spot that designers like Rapier and Dazcat aim for these days. The maximum width of the Lagoon 52 hull is probably as wide or wider as both mine put together . The only issue the few Quasars afloat have is weight - too heavy, too much junk, everyone seems to have built heavy GRP cockpit covers on them and we don't even have a helm seat!

It was, to do the initial build before sail testing and a lot of further changes, 7 days a week from 7 am until dark for 7 months with literally just 6 days off to get married and shoot over to our house in Ireland for a 4 day honeymoon before back to the boatyard so yes a lot of work
 

Trident

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Wow, you have been busy.
I am sure she will say well if kept very light🙂
She does but you are quite right that with cats there is a constant compromise between sufficient spares and supplies for long term self reliance and weight to still perform. We will not be carrying spare engine pistons aboard! :D
 
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